Today I took the .30 Herrett barrrel back to the range to try out the load with the 140 gr. Leadheads LFN. In reformed Winchester cases with CCI 200 primers and 12 gr. of IMR SR4759, these loads must have been cooking because they followed the 130 gr. Hornady SSP bullet load all the way out to almost 150 yards. Intended to be a "sub-load", these are in effect a good match to the 130 but in lead. Not what I had in mind at all. Back to the drawing board on this one.

I also still had a box of 20 of the sub-sonic 200 gr. Sierra MK loads. Now this would not stabilize the bullets before but must be just under the required speed because with the ambient air temp 10 degrees warmer a couple actually hit point on! Pushing this bullet as fast as it will go may provide a shootable load. However, I did play with these at 150 yards. While they were all over the place (and I recovered 2 from where the lay on the face of the dirt bank, after obviously striking side on) I did hit my 25 meter pistol target center twice at that range! Another interesting effect is that you can hear them "buzz" as they fly down range end over end!

Got to the fields too early in the afternoon for groundhogs (and it reach 80 today) so didn't see any for tagging with the Hornet. Perhaps we'll have a better day tomorrow.

Well, the weather has not been cooperating and when the weather has, my family hasn't so I've been unable to shoot much (or anything else related) and have had nothing to talk about. Until today...

Went back to the .22 Hornet barrel on Contender #1 and off to the range this morning. Dave R., John T., Adam H., and Scott H. were there and Mr. Greene showed up with his buddies to test yet more .54 NSSA barrels that Mr. Greene has made. Got to test the Hornet at 50, 100, and 150 yards with both the 35 gr. Hornady VMAX loads and the Remington factory. VMAX won by a large margin. I shot one 3-shot group at 150 that measured .3"!!! The Remington was nothing near that. One reason has to be that it doesn't put the bullet close enough to the lands. There is quite a bit of difference in that regard.

Anyway, after a morning of fellowship (the other fellows shot a Marlin 1895SS .45-70, a Ruger No. 1B in 7mm Mag,, a Marlin 983(?), a "sporterized" M96 Swede, a Ruger Ranch Rifle in .223, the .54 Mississippi rifles, and a stainless Savage 110 in .308 with a heavy barrel), I headed home, mowed the lawn, walked the dog, ate lunch and then headed out to Mom's to put new flowers on Dad's grave and check out the local groundhog (aka whistlepig, aka woodchuck) population, .22 Hornet barreled Contender carbine in hand.

Now, I've heard of groundhogs climbing trees but I've never seen it happen, until today. It was pretty warm, about 76 degrees Farenheit, and I was mosying along when I heard what I assumed to be a mighty big fox squirrel on tree trunk. I looked towards the sound, to my left, to see a 8-9 pound groundhog about 4 feet up the trunk hugging that old pine for all he was worth and looking directly at me. Range was about 30 yards. I shot him and then moved in for the post-mortem. Yep, he was dead. The 35 gr. VMAX had done a fine job (as it should have). I don't know if he climbed up to get a look at me or thought he was escaping, but it wasn't a smart thing to do. I'm sure he's feeding something tonight.

This is my first varmint with this particular barrel. I'd hoped to get a shot at 150 to test the bullet (loaded over 13 gr. L'ilGun for an estimated 2800 fps) but that was not to be.

I have (acquired in this order) a TC Seneca .36 (traditional caplock), a Lyman Remington "M1858" New Model Army, a TC New Englander .54 (traditional caplock), a .45 barrel for the Seneca, and a Pedersoli Brown Bess "Carbine" .75 cal. flintlock. In use in the western Virginia hunting conditions, I see no advantage to telescopic sights or in-line ignition at the ranges at which I will use these guns.

Obviously, I expect to have reduced "firepower" and perhaps range. I do not expect less accuracy from the rifled arms. The Bess is a smoothbore and with ball it simply will not be as accurate at ranges past 50 yards as rifled arms. If you hunt with a bow, you've already learned that your range will be limited. This is much the same thing but with a firearm.

In most cases, those buying the in-lines and scoping them are correctly perceived by the industry as wanting to hunt during the muzzleloader seasons without giving up range or power. In short, they are not interested in history, self-limitation, new hunting challenges, etc.

You need to determine the why of your muzzleloading hunting and choose accordingly. Good luck!

I have finally gotten to do some shooting this week. Today I took out my .22 Hornet barrel. Loads tried were the Winchester 45 gr. HP, the Remington 46 gr. SP and my load using H110 and the Hornady 35 gr. VMAX. Despite the wind some good groups were shot, but not spectacular, averaging 1-1½ inches at 100 yards. Some 3 shot groups went ½ inch but I could not maintain that for an entire 5 round string.

Tomorrow I will be wringing out the .218 Bee barrel by Bullberry. Both of these barrels have 4X scopes mounted.

.25-35 Winchester Research

I've been doing some research on the .25-35 Winchester known in Europe as the 6.5x52R. Apparently, I'm one of the few users others just don't have much to contribute. Chuck Hawks has a good short write-up on the cartridge. I would still like to learn more about actual experiences in the use of this cartridge so if you have used it feel free to write.

We do know that it is (was?) used in Europe for Roe Deer in drillings and combination guns. Here in the states it was chambered in the Winchester Model 1894 and Marlin chambered a proprietary "copy" of it called the .25-36 Marlin in their guns. Also, Remington thought enough of its commercial viability to chamber a rimless version (with a different case shape) in their Model 8 auto-loader and Model 14 pump action rifles. While the Marlin is more on line in ballistic performance with the European version known there as the 6.5x52R, it's 117 gr. bullet going about 2000 fps in that cartridge. That's compared to 2250 fps for the same bullet in the Winchester version or 2350 fps in some loadings of the Remington rimless version. Now it seems that the only new made guns are in the form of Thompson Center Contender barrels. Many have apparently been made by the custom shop.

Ken Waters points out that the .25 Remington was touted as an "expert's" cartridge and loaded with 87, 100 and 117 gr. bullets including some full metal jacketed. One of the uses touted for this round was the shooting of geese on the water! In any case it is a mild recoiling round that can take whitetailed deer with care and be loaded as a small game cartridge equal to the .25-20 Winchester. I believe that it could also be a fine eastern coyote cartridge for use at ranges to 175 yards or so.

If you've been following my posts and/or my topics on Accurate Reloading, you've seen that I've had an interesting journey with this particular Contender barrel. Produced by the custom shop, it is 21" long, standard taper, high lustre blue, and drilled only for the scope mount. I've mounted a Swift 1.5-4.5X scope in Weaver mounts and rings. All up weight mounted with the Rynite stock is only 5½ pounds! I purchased it second (?) hand from Ron Sable (I would include a link but his page doesn't seem to be working!) and as usual, it was exactly as described. I don't think it was ever fired much and it is in really good condition (aka NRA fine). FYI, another good place to look for Contender (and Encore) barrels is Ed's Contenders. Ed is a fine gentleman and has a wide range of barrels. Even if you don't see want you want, call or send and e-mail and ask. Please be patient, Ed has at least 2 other jobs and is often out of town.

Of course when reloading one must start somewhere. After I have gun or barrel in hand I generally look at the game I expect to use the particular cartridge on and then seek appropriate bullets. For the .25-35 Hornady makes THE 117 grain round-nose (curiously, factory ammo is all flatnosed!?!) which is, by all accounts, an excellent bullet. Remington also produces an 86 grain bullet intended for the .25-20 Winchester that has a second cannelure which allows one to use your .25-35 seating die set to load both these fine bullets despite the length difference. Both of these bullets are easily obtainable from Midway if you've got difficulties getting your local shop to order for you. There was one other bullet that interested me and that was the Hornady VMAX, a 75 grain, .257" BT type bullet that I thought would be the cat's meow!

My original intent was to take the VMAX and load it with 34 gr. BL-C(2) to about 2800 fps. This part worked out well, I was able to go to the 34 gr. maximum load without signs of excessive pressure and attained 2832 fps average velocity at 10' from the muzzle. So far so good. Accuracy with cases from the same lot is better than factory ammo, averaging right around 1" at 100 yards compared to the factory ammo's (both the Winchester and Sellier and Bellot (S&B) 6.5x52R load) 1 3/4" at that same distance. Unfortunately, there always seems to be a complication, Murphy being alive and well in Virginia.

With the scope mounted and zeroed for the factory ammunition, I attempted to fire my first groups with my handloads consisting of Winchester brass, the 75 gr. Hornady VMAX, 34 gr. Hodgdon's BL-C(2) and a CCI 200 Large Rifle primer. Velocity was, as noted, 2832 fps, a considerable step up from the 2000-2250 fps of factory ammo. At 50 yards bullet strike for this load was a full 10 inches higher than the factory ammo and I don't even have an idea as to where it struck at 100 yards since it was completely off the target backing (but into the berm). Well I didn't want to re-zero, but soon discovered that I was still going to be 3 inches high at 50 yards and the scope had no remaining adjustment. This was a disappointment but never one to give up I tried shimming the rings and base to bring the groups into a usable distance from the point of aim. I was only able to move bullet strike down an additional inch and was uncomfortable with the amount of shim material being used. I was also unhappy that I would not be able to shoot the factory ammo with that sight setting. Indeed, I was not going to be able to zero the rifle with factory ammo with the shims in place. So, out came the shims and this load will be abandoned.

I am now working on the Hornady 117 gr. round nose bullet. Maximum velocities come with 27 gr. of BL-C(2) and the same CCI 200 primer and are averaging 2350 fps or so. This is about 100 fps faster than the Winchester factory but beats the "anemic" 6.5x52R S&B load by 300 fps, a substantial amount. I suppose I should pause and make a couple of comments about the factory ammo.

The Winchester ammo is of the usual high quality we've come to expect from this manufacturer. Brass is good quality and reloadable, it is fairly accurate and dependable. No barn burner but a good solid performer. S&B ammo is a somewhat different story.

While the quality seems to be pretty good and accuracy is pretty good, the brass leaves something to be desired. Out of 2 boxes, 2 cases have had splits in the shoulder/neck region on the first firing. One seldom sees such a propensity for splitting in US made ammunition. This bothers me, and I'm sure it would bother you. Obviously the pressure is not very high, it has to be rooted in the quality of the brass. I'd not use this brass for maximum effort loads and will in fact be using it for loads with the Remington .25-20 86 gr. which I intend to move at about 1800 fps.

Now this should be a useful load, firing a fairly light bullet at very moderate velocities it should be a very mild recoiling round in even this light gun. This will make it a good training cartridge as well as a light but effective groundhog gun and it shouldn't be too destructive of rabbits and squirrels. With any luck I'll be able to get it to shoot to the same point of aim as the 117 gr. bullet load to 100 yards. My first powder to try will be the IMR SR4759. I am hoping that 12-14 gr. will do the trick. SR4759 is often a good powder to use for "reduced" loads where you want to maximize loading density.

That is about all for now. I'll post the results of future work here as well.

Well, I went shooting again today. Beautiful. Took the .41 Mag and .25-35 (6.5x52R) back to the range.

The .41 Remington Magnum Bullberry barrel is a beaut and I am starting to like the Simmons Pro-diamond reticule. Using a load of 22.5 gr. Hodgdon L'ilGun with the Hornady 210 gr. XTP gets about 1800 fps from this 16" barrel. This just about equals the Winchester factory 200 gr. silvertip load for the .35 Remington. Now this may not seem like much but a load this powerful that shoots fairly flat to 150 yards and is in a 5 lb. rifle platform with a scope that has a built in "ranging" capability (once I figure it out). That has to be a good thing. Maybe the pistol shooters don't agree, Well, this is a Contender, maybe pistols aren't for everyone (and I shoot one fairly well) and this will suit somebody's needs.

I've also just started experimenting with a 16½" blued bull .41 Remington Magnum barrel by Bullberry. The first loads fired were the Winchester 175 gr. Silvertips. I understand that these are not loaded to top velocities and I believe it. This was a very mild recoiling load. Playing around, a human-head sized rock was VERY easy to hit at 50 yards.

However, I have a Simmons Wild Turkey Federation 4x scope mounted on this carbine and I experienced some of the same problems with the scope adjustment as I did in the .25-35 setup mentioned below. Also, this is using the Millet rings which are adjustable for windage (both the front and back) and I played the devil of a time to get them centered. That did work well however, as my boresighting with the rings had all groups centered. The only problems were with elevation. To correct those problems, I am already experimenting with the Hornady 210 gr. XTP. Loaded on top of 22.5 gr. of Hogdon's L'il Gun, I feel that this will be a real performer as velocities should go 1800+ fps in my long barrel.

Of course I've got lots to do with my .22 Hornet, .218 Bee and .223 Remington barrels. Until I run out of them, I'll be loading the Hornady 35 gr. .224 VMAX over 13 gr. L'il Gun in the Hornet, 14 gr. L'il Gun in the Bee and loading the Sierra 63 gr. SP in the .223 Remington. My son-in-law says thet his dad has lots of groundhogs that "need" killing! Better get to work!

They also have lots of coyotes. For that reason I'll be going up in bullet weight when I run out of the 35 gr. VMAXs. I understand that there is still a bounty in some counties.

I've been busy with other things, like shooting!

One of the products I've been working on is the Thompson Center Contender Custom Shop .25-35 21" barrel (standard taper profile) with Weaver mount and Swift 1.5-4.5x scope.

I acquired from some person who will remain un-named, approximately 250 cases of which 55 cases were reformed .30-30. All were supposed to be "once fired". They were not. Also, it seemed that they had been fired in an assortment of chambers. The end result is that even after the standard case preparation (polish, lube, resize/deprime, trim, chamfer, clean primer pockets) there was still some difference in case neck tension. This seems to differ based on manufacture and date of manufacture (based on headstamps).

Still, even with mixed brass, groups were acceptable if not at all impressive, running in the 1½-3½ inch range with like brass grouping in tight 1-1½ "sub-groups". Unfortunately, differing bullet weights do not shoot to anything like the same POI, differing by as much as 10"! Also unfortunate, my scope does not have the range of adjustment required to make it usable with the desired range of bullets.

What range of bullets am I talking about? Well, first I had zeroed with the Winchester factory load which features the 117 grain "RN" bullet (actually a flat point). This load moves out at about 2200 fps from my barrel. I was pretty pleased with this load. It was accurate, I was able to zero quickly and the recoil and muzzle blast was pretty mild, even with the 21" barrel and 6 pound weight of my carbine with Rynite stock. I then tried the Sellier and Bellot (S&B) 6.5x52mmR load which features a FP jacketed bullet of the same 117 grain weight and a velocity of 2008 fps. That it is a mild load goes without saying. I'm sure it would be effective on smallish deer in found in some parts of the country, but on our local whitetails I'd want to get closer AND I wouldn't feel comfortable in stretching the range given the trajectories of these "slow" loads.

So, I decided I create an effective coyote load (which has proven impractical) of the 75 gr. Hornady VMAX, 34 gr. of Hogdon's BL(C)2, CCI200 and a factory .25-35 case. Velocities are supposed to be high and they are. Averaging 2837 fps, I sure the spread (from 2937 to 2766 fps) being due to the aforementioned varying case neck tension. Still it grouped fairly well and "sub-groups" of 1-1½" gave hints of great promise for this load. Unfortunately... yes, there is a "but"... groups were a full 10" higher on the target than the Winchester factory POA... at 50 yards. This was unacceptable and the scope's range of adjustment was insufficient to adjust the bullet strike to the proper place on the target.

So, the base was shimmed and scope remounted. That did not make enough difference, bringing the group only 3" lower. Doubling the shim thickness (to the limit of my personal comfort zone with this modification) predictably only lowered the group another 3", still a good 4" above the POA. Also, factory loads would have required equally radical sight adjustment. I decided I just did not want to mess with this further.

Now, I will be trying the Hornady 117 gr. RN and the Remington 86 gr. FP (for the .25-20). I'll push the former at max velocities (for this case) in new factory brass and load the latter bullet to approximate the .25-20 velocities it was built for. Approximate because I will adjust the velocities so that the sights will not have to be changed in order to use both loads. If this works out I'll be very happy with this light and light recoiling rifle. Additionally, it will clearly do what it was intended to do, provide me with hours of enjoyable shooting in experimentation.

As a side note, I have noticed that better velocities can be achieved with the .257 TCU cartridge. Provided the throat is properly matched to the barrel this would make it better for those wanting to achieve top velocities in the Contender with the .25 caliber bullets. Another alternative is a custom barrel for one of the improved forms of the .25-35 such as Francis Sell's Tomcat, the .25 Bullberry or slightly different .25 Bullberry Improved.

There was a discussion about the safety of using the oven to dry cartridge cases that had been washed in water. The consensus is that the brass does not reach a temperature hot enough to change it's properties when the oven is set at 200 degrees Fahrenheit.

My experience is that I shoot some BP .38-55 ammo and washing BP is recommended. But after my first experience with new brass and the oven technique, I'll never dry in an oven again. Fully one half of the cases split, down the body, on the second firing. (.38-55 Winchester, Winchester brass). Now I wash in hot soapy water, rinse in hot water, towel off and leave to dry. If there is stubborn water on the cases, I might use a hair dryer to blow dry the particular case, if it doesn't burn my hand, the brass will be fine. Maybe this is one of the few instances of some sort of OC behavior on my part but, well, this is what I do and why.

I'd like to hear more about it.

I am searching for an ammo box appropriate to the .22 Hornet and .218 Bee. Most boxes allow for too much length and the ammo rattles around in the box. If anyone has a product recommendation, please pass it on.

I got the new to me .25-35 barrel out and zeroed it, pretty much. The wind was blowing so hard that I had to hurry to shoot before my target would get blown off the backer!

Went by the shops today and saw one of the new Para Ordance .45s (the Companion?) with the double action trigger AND grip safety. WOW! I don't know how it shoots but that is the lightest double action trigger I've ever seen. Smooth, breaks like glass and light. A single stack pistol, I think it would carry better than my Combat Commander OR my Makarov.

Today I completed loading the 100 Graf & Sons/Hornady 7.65x53mm cases. I picked up 2 boxes of the .41 Hornady 210 gr. XTPs (and was a bit surprised at the round ogive, I expected more of a truncated cone form). I started forming some more 7mm TCU brass from milsurp (LC 97). This last I plan on loading with H335 to compare to the H4895 loads I've been using.

I need to get some more Midway sliptop 20 round boxes. They seem to be the best size for everything bigger than .223 case head cases.

I also learned today that the Hornady 7mm SSP bullet is now the same as the 120 gr. 7mm VMAX. That was a surprise. I am wondering if they did the .30 SSP the same way and the .30 130 gr. VMAX is the new SSP. I've been thinking of going to that anyway.

Again, my shooting activities have been limited due to weather and work.

I've been doing some reloading and cleaning up the odd, unloaded cases. One thing I've done is taken a leap with the 7.65x53mm Argentine. Having received 100 of the Graf & Sons/Hornady brass, I felt these needed reloading as well. I just don't feel comfortable plinking with the Woodleigh 215 grain RNs at $28+ for 50 (from MidwayUSA)! So, I developed a load, safe in my 1891 carbine, of 46 gr. H4350 with the Sierra .312" 180 gr. SP. I don't think that, despite Norma loading a very similar load, that the sights of military weapons in this chambering were ever calibrated for loads with 180 grain bullets. However, this load is VERY similar to the 174 gr. British MK VII loading. In fact, I use this same bullet in my .303 military ball duplication loads and they do very well in shooting to the sights

With the coming of very much warmer weather this week, I hope that I'll be able to zero my .25-35 barrel with the factory 117 gr. FN (billed as a RN it really is a FN) load. Also, I hope to do the same with the .41 Remington Magnum barrel.

I've also been cleaning and re-organizing the loading area and ammo shelf. Not exactly the Ritz, but pretty comfortable and safe.

It has been days since I've done anything really shooting related.

I have been cleaning the reloading area and made room for more bullets. I'm also going through things looking for AR-15 related gifts for my son-in-law. I bought some .25 VMax 75 gr. bullets for the .25-35 and a new powder trickler for use with those darn fine ball powders like H110 that bind up my old trickler. Last, I ordered some Hornady .41 cal XTPs for the .41 Mag barrel.

I'm happy to report that I received a set of RCBS carbide dies for the .41 Magnum today. Whooohooo! Now to settle on a bullet. Any suggestions? In the load tables, the 170 has the highest energy figures but I'd lean to a 210 or heavier, maybe even a 275 LFN (LBT design) GC.

Also, I need to acquire a set of .25-35 dies.

All this going on and Mike Bellm is trying to get me to get a .250 Imp (using .444 Marlin or .307 Winchester cases). Then, a .358 Bellm? A .32-20 with a .312 bore? Heck, I've not wrung out everything else yet and my dear wife wants to go to "someplace" for spring break. YUCK!

As mentioned yesterday, I've been reorganizing my shooting stuff. This was initiated by the use of my son's former bedroom as an office. This has followed the usual way of things and one task has beget another.

I never realized just how much "stuff" I have. Ammunition for all my Contender barrels and other guns, collected accessories, hunting clothes, keepsakes from various hunts and my own and my father's time in the military, etc., have taken up residence in sort of a hodge-podge with a life of it's own. Labeling, organizing and cleaning have been the major sub-tasks of this general house cleaning. Fortunately, the weather has cooperated being either too windy, too cold or both for me to spend much time outside or do any constructive range work. At least there's room in the safe for everything.

However, new stuff continues to come in. I'm now waiting on some 350 .25-35 Winchester cases to wend their way here. I'll need dies, bullets (and a plan for loading), and storage for that as well. I'm thinking I'll need to redo my bullet and powder shelf.

Watched "Safari Hunter's Journal" on TV along with lunch today. I've seen it before. These guys are quite supportive of the Blaser R93 rifle. So much so that if I was to lose all my current battery somehow, I'd get an R93 in .222 Rem., 9.3x62mm and .416 Rem. I think I'd also get one of those Ruger SxS 12 ga. guns. I'd also get a good traditional muzzleloader (actually one flinter volunteer musket type and one .54 rifle, percussion or flint) and a .22. I'd have to get a good carry pistol and that would probably be a .45. I hope it never comes to that!