In the most recent issue of Rifle magazine, Dave Scovill has made some comments in his monthly column. Those comments are directed at some who Mr. Scovill feels might be expecting too much of the Marlin rifles. I believe, from reading the article, that he feels that way based on questions on conversions that he receives. He also posts a chart showing common lever gun rounds and the SAAMI pressure standards for those rounds.
This has caused no end of comments in a topic on the Leverguns.com forum. Many, including yours truly, have weighed in with words of wisdom regarding Mr. Scovill's article. Some are actually wise, some aren't. I feel as though I've been invited to a wrestling match with a pig. You know, you both get dirty but the pig LOVES it. That's what has made me think about this subject of cartridge suitability for the Marlins, most particularly the M336. It has also made me rethink my work with the .38-55.
I'll start by saying I'm not going to disappoint any readers of this blog or people who think that the .38-55 can be safely loaded to 42,000 psi same as the .30-30. I will continue to do so. In actions which will accomodate the 7-30 Waters (45K psi) and the .30-30 or .32 Special (42K psi) I think it is logical, reasonable and safe to load the .38-55 to 42K psi and I think that means that my load of 32 gr. of RL-7 under the 255 gr. Barnes Original or Stone Fence bullet is safe and within these standards.
However, I do not believe a couple of things that some do seem to believe or know. First, case shape does affect breach thrust in actions where the case head does not contact a standing breach. This includes the leverguns. In the leverguns, the bolt acts as a piston and pushes against other moving parts such as the locking lugs/bolts and over the distance of the length of the bolt can have a greater affect on the action.
The second is that the Contender, is a different animal and in that "case", where the case head contacts the standing breach (a part of the frame, not a moving part), the surface area of the case head and how much pressure is actually transfered to the breach is what is important.
This has been debated ad naseum over the years but I'm going to take a stand that I will follow in how I handle my own guns and reloading. I'm not going to rechamber the Marlin M336 for cartridges which produce in excess of 45K psi.
Saturday, August 07, 2004
Sunday, June 13, 2004
My first deer ever was taken with a Marlin M336 .30-30 (if I can find the serial number of that gun I would, foolish youth sent it on it's way in a trade...[:I]) with a Williams Foolproof Receiver Sight. My dad bought it for me (although I'd thought I'd saved enough for it and that it was MY money that crossed the counter) and it was bought used from a Western Auto (remember those?) in Harrisonburg, VA. I still go by the spot I shot that deer every year, usually carrying Dad's gun... Anyway, it was a buck that field dressed at 120 pounds and had a little 5 point (eastern count) rack. My dad drove it off a clear cut and I shot it at about 40 yards. I think that was 1970... We found a 20 gauge Foster slug just under the skin and just behind the rib cage and that wound was all healed up. Lots of fine memories in that one hunt...
I often wonder if Dad knew just what that one event would mean to me over the years. In Korea, when fall came and I couldn't go home to hunt, I'd often day dream of that hunt. Of course, it wasn't just killing my first deer or first buck or using my new-to-me rifle, it really was about sharing the whole experience with my dad. I have to say that I got punished about as much as any other kid I knew and that my dad wasn't one to spare the rod but I've no bad memories of him at all. I deserved every spanking I ever got. What I do remember best are all the times we were in the outdoors. When dad kept me from going over the side of the 120 foot fire tower, or when we were in the 16' open motorboat crossing Lake George in 6 foot waves (Dad couldn't swim) with water coming in the boat and all of us bailing... Come to think of it, Dad wasn't bailing, he was sitting in his usual position, slightly hunched over (he was 6'+ tall) with both hands firmly grasping the seat. Maybe he was scared, it didn't seem so at the time. I remember the long hikes in Kentucky, West Virginia and Virginia. I remember the fishing even when I was 6 at Spruce Knob Lake in WV or on the river on Grandpa's farm. I remember the sight of my dad coming in from fighting a forest fire still wearing his grimy white T shirt (they were ALL white then and with no logos) to take me to the Elkins, WV Forest Festival. I remember oooohing and aaaahing over the live otters in the tank at the WV Game Commission display while Dad talked with people he knew (probably about the fire). I remember seeing parades from his shoulders and having trouble standing afterwards. The thing about Dad was that there was a lot to remember about him. I guess I was kinda lucky.
I often wonder if Dad knew just what that one event would mean to me over the years. In Korea, when fall came and I couldn't go home to hunt, I'd often day dream of that hunt. Of course, it wasn't just killing my first deer or first buck or using my new-to-me rifle, it really was about sharing the whole experience with my dad. I have to say that I got punished about as much as any other kid I knew and that my dad wasn't one to spare the rod but I've no bad memories of him at all. I deserved every spanking I ever got. What I do remember best are all the times we were in the outdoors. When dad kept me from going over the side of the 120 foot fire tower, or when we were in the 16' open motorboat crossing Lake George in 6 foot waves (Dad couldn't swim) with water coming in the boat and all of us bailing... Come to think of it, Dad wasn't bailing, he was sitting in his usual position, slightly hunched over (he was 6'+ tall) with both hands firmly grasping the seat. Maybe he was scared, it didn't seem so at the time. I remember the long hikes in Kentucky, West Virginia and Virginia. I remember the fishing even when I was 6 at Spruce Knob Lake in WV or on the river on Grandpa's farm. I remember the sight of my dad coming in from fighting a forest fire still wearing his grimy white T shirt (they were ALL white then and with no logos) to take me to the Elkins, WV Forest Festival. I remember oooohing and aaaahing over the live otters in the tank at the WV Game Commission display while Dad talked with people he knew (probably about the fire). I remember seeing parades from his shoulders and having trouble standing afterwards. The thing about Dad was that there was a lot to remember about him. I guess I was kinda lucky.
Tuesday, June 08, 2004
FINALLY remembered to carry the Speed-Six to the range (it is the bedside gun) and the results are... (drum roll please)... 1359 fps avg for 648 fpe with an AD of 39 fps and an SD of 51.
I have to say that I have one chamber than consistently gives lower velocities and one that consistently gives higher velocities with every load.
Also, I shot for group at 25 yards. I got 3 and 3½ inch groups for 6 rounds. This is a romper stomper compared to most loads I've been using. When I want something really powerful in a handgun I go to a .4something! Again, the 180 gr. bullet load gave 1179 fps for 556 fpe from this gun. I did shoot it for groups too, but at 50 yards and it gave 4-6" groups at that range.
The 180 gr. Rem SJHP load went into a 1.75" group at 100 today. I think this is remarkable given the sights (particularly the front bead). Another interesting point is that zeroed, the Williams Foolproof is resting on top of the receiver! One would truly need a higher front sight with this gun and an aperture sight when using lighter bullets. I've never needed to replace the front sight on any other levergun after mounting an aperture sight. This gun might be the exception. If so, it will get a sourdough front just .002-.003" taller. I think that is all the extra front sight it would need to zero that barn burning 158 gr. XTP load that goes over 2000 fps.
I have to say that I have one chamber than consistently gives lower velocities and one that consistently gives higher velocities with every load.
Also, I shot for group at 25 yards. I got 3 and 3½ inch groups for 6 rounds. This is a romper stomper compared to most loads I've been using. When I want something really powerful in a handgun I go to a .4something! Again, the 180 gr. bullet load gave 1179 fps for 556 fpe from this gun. I did shoot it for groups too, but at 50 yards and it gave 4-6" groups at that range.
The 180 gr. Rem SJHP load went into a 1.75" group at 100 today. I think this is remarkable given the sights (particularly the front bead). Another interesting point is that zeroed, the Williams Foolproof is resting on top of the receiver! One would truly need a higher front sight with this gun and an aperture sight when using lighter bullets. I've never needed to replace the front sight on any other levergun after mounting an aperture sight. This gun might be the exception. If so, it will get a sourdough front just .002-.003" taller. I think that is all the extra front sight it would need to zero that barn burning 158 gr. XTP load that goes over 2000 fps.
Monday, June 07, 2004
Some additional thoughts today...
About primers, the CCI500s and 550s performed about the same for me in the loading with Lil'Gun and the 158 gr. XTPs but NOT the same for the 180 gr. SJHPs. I don't know why, but the extreme spread was halved by switching the magnum primer with the 180s (with corresponding reductions in AD and SD numbers) while no noticeable difference occured with the 158 gr. XTP load. If I was a betting man, I'd bet on the CCI550s (or perhaps another magnum primer like the Winchester) as the place to START not to finish.
Another thought is that the 158 XTP HPs will not handle the velocity that the 158 XTP FPs will. I'd expect that the HPs would not be deer suitable but the FPs would be. I don't think that the FPs would be the rompin' stompin' pistol load though... So my all rounder will the 180 which is going slow enough not to blow a turkey all to heck, shoots flat enough that I can utilize the gun to the range the sights are useful (without needing a new, higher front sight), and will work wonders on deer and coyotes as well. If I have to use it for AP work, well the 158 won't be that much of a hinderance, will it? However, if I had already loaded all those rounds with the XTP FP, I might rethink my plan...
As to accuracy, well, the sights are some handicap for grouping but fast to hit with. Still, I cut cloverleafs at 50 yards, 2" at 100 seems to be easy.
BTW, I've heard that Buffalo Bore uses Lil'Gun in their loads and yes I believe their figures. Others report similar results with Lil'Gun. They also up their loads but I won't. I want 100% function, not riding the ragged edge of success. I adapt by aiming and stalking closer. Not always as "successful" but always fun and rewarding. Lil'Gun beats H110 all hollow in my .357s does really well in my .41 carbine and is about the same as H110 in my .44 Mag.
About primers, the CCI500s and 550s performed about the same for me in the loading with Lil'Gun and the 158 gr. XTPs but NOT the same for the 180 gr. SJHPs. I don't know why, but the extreme spread was halved by switching the magnum primer with the 180s (with corresponding reductions in AD and SD numbers) while no noticeable difference occured with the 158 gr. XTP load. If I was a betting man, I'd bet on the CCI550s (or perhaps another magnum primer like the Winchester) as the place to START not to finish.
Another thought is that the 158 XTP HPs will not handle the velocity that the 158 XTP FPs will. I'd expect that the HPs would not be deer suitable but the FPs would be. I don't think that the FPs would be the rompin' stompin' pistol load though... So my all rounder will the 180 which is going slow enough not to blow a turkey all to heck, shoots flat enough that I can utilize the gun to the range the sights are useful (without needing a new, higher front sight), and will work wonders on deer and coyotes as well. If I have to use it for AP work, well the 158 won't be that much of a hinderance, will it? However, if I had already loaded all those rounds with the XTP FP, I might rethink my plan...
As to accuracy, well, the sights are some handicap for grouping but fast to hit with. Still, I cut cloverleafs at 50 yards, 2" at 100 seems to be easy.
BTW, I've heard that Buffalo Bore uses Lil'Gun in their loads and yes I believe their figures. Others report similar results with Lil'Gun. They also up their loads but I won't. I want 100% function, not riding the ragged edge of success. I adapt by aiming and stalking closer. Not always as "successful" but always fun and rewarding. Lil'Gun beats H110 all hollow in my .357s does really well in my .41 carbine and is about the same as H110 in my .44 Mag.
Marlin 1894C .357 Magnum
Well, I've received my new (to me) Marlin M1894 .357 Mag from LubbockDave. Hoorah. Actually better than described, well cared for and smoooooooooooth from use. Does shoot a little high now that I've got a Williams Foolproof Receiver Sight installed (about 10 minutes after I picked it up ). I think it will probably shoot POA or close to it with my intended load of Lil'Gun and the Remington 180 gr. SJHP. Yeah, I got it at 9:30 and was at the range by 10:30!
I looked high and low for a pre-crossbolt safety (which I might have mentioned that I detest ). I think it is actually a better gun than my old (and departed ) M1894 in .44 Mag. It is as accurate (even with the .38 Special FBI load) at 50 yards.
For those wondering if LubbockDave is fit to do business with you'll only get a big thumbs up from me. Modest description with complete photos, what I think was a fair price, fast shipment (and apparently good packing! ), and darn nice correspondence about it all to boot. I think he'll do to ride the range with.
This was my first net purchase and I was a bit nervous about it. Not because of the seller but because of the system.
It certainly IS a lot of fun. I've got the factory rear sight off and a dovetail filler in. I was really surprised by how well it shot (Microgroove barrel and all) the Federal .38 Special FBI load. I was adjusting sights but got a couple three cloverleafs at 50 yards. Swaged bullets never worked well in my 1894 .44 Mag but they did pretty good from this gun.
125 gr. Federal factory load (in fact I used up what I had) and they averaged 2068 fps. I also loaded a few (had some 6 primed cases ready, the bulk of my brass is in the trim stage) with Lil'Gun and the Remington 180 SJHPs. For MY rifle the bullets have to be seated so that the cannelure is just a shade below the case mouth (as trimmed). Easier to fix by trimming the cases a bit shorter than rolling a new cannelure.
With Federal .38 Special "FBI" load of 158 gr. swaged bullet, I got about 1100 fps and 2 inch groups at 50 yards. My bead almost covers the 50 yard pistol slow fire pistol target center I was using.
The 15 gr. Lil'Gun under the 180 gr. Remington SJHP does 1669 fps for 1114 fpe from my gun. My old 125 gr. SJHP loads over H110 did 1978 fps for 1108 fpe. These are just about as fast as the Federal factory 125s and shoot high just like the Federal ammo (no surprises there!).
I also ran the 158 gr. XTP over 18 gr. of Lil'Gun (CCI500 primer) over the chronograph. Temps were about 63-65 degrees. Average velocity was 1989 fps for 1389 fpe with an AD of 8 and SD of 10. These even beat the 125 gr. bullet reloads using 2400 I had!
Now this was with the HP version but I've no doubt it will do as well with the FP version which will probably hold up to these velocities and contact with actual game.
I also tried the 15 gr. of Lil'Gun under the 180 gr. Remington SJHP with the CCI550 (magnum small pistol) instead of the CCI500. Avg velocity was up slightly to 1675 fps with an AD of 15 and SD of 21. However the extreme spread (ES) was cut in half! I bought 500 of these and will no doubt load up the rest over the CCI550.
The 158s will shoot a bit flatter and have an extended point blank range over the 180s but the 180s have a lot going for them. They will probably penetrate a bit better, they were cheaper by half, they use less powder, they are just as accurate and they shoot flat enough given how much that front bead covers at range. I won't have to get a higher front sight either.
I also had 4 old (1975 vintage?) Glaser safety slugs for the .38 Special. These went 1986 fps (heck I was going to shoot them up anyway and have almost forgotten just how expensive they were at the time ).
The more I shoot it the more I like this gun. My old M1894 .44 Mag didn't have a barrel band at the forearm tip and always looked a bit odd to me. So that feature is an improvement in my book. Also, the 18½" barrel of this model seems to make it handy and balance like it ought to. I want to use this for my "truck gun" which is used on the very odd coyote (suicidal is more like it), feral dogs and cats, foxes, groundhogs, and maybe a deer now and again. Have yet to take a turkey with a "truck gun" but I see more turkeys from the truck than on stand! May have sold yet another of those Marlins! A couple of "spectators" were really excited to see those numbers. Of course, they had to try it out as well and went through most of the rest of my ammo.
I looked high and low for a pre-crossbolt safety (which I might have mentioned that I detest ). I think it is actually a better gun than my old (and departed ) M1894 in .44 Mag. It is as accurate (even with the .38 Special FBI load) at 50 yards.
For those wondering if LubbockDave is fit to do business with you'll only get a big thumbs up from me. Modest description with complete photos, what I think was a fair price, fast shipment (and apparently good packing! ), and darn nice correspondence about it all to boot. I think he'll do to ride the range with.
This was my first net purchase and I was a bit nervous about it. Not because of the seller but because of the system.
It certainly IS a lot of fun. I've got the factory rear sight off and a dovetail filler in. I was really surprised by how well it shot (Microgroove barrel and all) the Federal .38 Special FBI load. I was adjusting sights but got a couple three cloverleafs at 50 yards. Swaged bullets never worked well in my 1894 .44 Mag but they did pretty good from this gun.
125 gr. Federal factory load (in fact I used up what I had) and they averaged 2068 fps. I also loaded a few (had some 6 primed cases ready, the bulk of my brass is in the trim stage) with Lil'Gun and the Remington 180 SJHPs. For MY rifle the bullets have to be seated so that the cannelure is just a shade below the case mouth (as trimmed). Easier to fix by trimming the cases a bit shorter than rolling a new cannelure.
With Federal .38 Special "FBI" load of 158 gr. swaged bullet, I got about 1100 fps and 2 inch groups at 50 yards. My bead almost covers the 50 yard pistol slow fire pistol target center I was using.
The 15 gr. Lil'Gun under the 180 gr. Remington SJHP does 1669 fps for 1114 fpe from my gun. My old 125 gr. SJHP loads over H110 did 1978 fps for 1108 fpe. These are just about as fast as the Federal factory 125s and shoot high just like the Federal ammo (no surprises there!).
I also ran the 158 gr. XTP over 18 gr. of Lil'Gun (CCI500 primer) over the chronograph. Temps were about 63-65 degrees. Average velocity was 1989 fps for 1389 fpe with an AD of 8 and SD of 10. These even beat the 125 gr. bullet reloads using 2400 I had!
Now this was with the HP version but I've no doubt it will do as well with the FP version which will probably hold up to these velocities and contact with actual game.
I also tried the 15 gr. of Lil'Gun under the 180 gr. Remington SJHP with the CCI550 (magnum small pistol) instead of the CCI500. Avg velocity was up slightly to 1675 fps with an AD of 15 and SD of 21. However the extreme spread (ES) was cut in half! I bought 500 of these and will no doubt load up the rest over the CCI550.
The 158s will shoot a bit flatter and have an extended point blank range over the 180s but the 180s have a lot going for them. They will probably penetrate a bit better, they were cheaper by half, they use less powder, they are just as accurate and they shoot flat enough given how much that front bead covers at range. I won't have to get a higher front sight either.
I also had 4 old (1975 vintage?) Glaser safety slugs for the .38 Special. These went 1986 fps (heck I was going to shoot them up anyway and have almost forgotten just how expensive they were at the time ).
The more I shoot it the more I like this gun. My old M1894 .44 Mag didn't have a barrel band at the forearm tip and always looked a bit odd to me. So that feature is an improvement in my book. Also, the 18½" barrel of this model seems to make it handy and balance like it ought to. I want to use this for my "truck gun" which is used on the very odd coyote (suicidal is more like it), feral dogs and cats, foxes, groundhogs, and maybe a deer now and again. Have yet to take a turkey with a "truck gun" but I see more turkeys from the truck than on stand! May have sold yet another of those Marlins! A couple of "spectators" were really excited to see those numbers. Of course, they had to try it out as well and went through most of the rest of my ammo.
Wednesday, May 19, 2004
I thought I would post some notes on my 10mm Auto barrel from posts I made on the Specialty Pistols forum.
I have a 14" that I got from the old obsolete barrels list. I put a Choate extension on it and use it as a carbine barrel. I had some interesting results from my chrono run on my 14" barrel.
Load/velocity/energy/AD/SD
10 gr. Unique 155 XTP/1156/460/55/67
155 XTP Factory/1457/731/5/7
180 Hydroshock Factory/1093/477/39/54
180 Rem HP Factory/1180/556/20/27
10 gr. BlueDot 180 BullX TC/1510/911/10/16
Factory ammo sure ain't a barn burner!
Reference, pierced primers. This is interesting. I noted that some loads, and not the hot ones, have a tendency to have that look to the primers although none were actually pierced. You know, that just about pierced look. I haven't seen such primer appearance with any other cartridge regardless of pressure level. Of course all these were fired on the same frame. RELOADS don't exhibit this only FACTORY ammo. Peculiar.
I'm really getting to like the 180s in this cartridge. Guess what, just like the .38 WCF (aka .38-40).
BTW, another interesting observation. At 150 yards, all loads struck to within 3 inches of one another. My 14" with Choate extension, used as a carbine, TC aperture sight. That's with loads of 155 going 1100 fps to 180s going 1450 fps!
I can see why this level of performance had a following. Low recoil usable trajectory to 150 yards (and farther if you are have some experience), sufficient power for close range hunting but not excessive for small game and relatively low report. Would be a great cartridge to teach a youngster and transition to centerfire.
Found a box of PMC 170 gr. factory stuff and shot it up today. 1292/630/17/26 (fps/fpe/ad/sd)
I'm constantly amazed at the velocities I'm not getting. The bore expansion ratio is such with this cartridge that it does just a hair better in the 14" than it would in the 5".
Wanted to let you know the results from my 10mm Auto loads with the 180 gr. XTP and 10.4 gr. Blue Dot. I got 1271/646/23/32 (fps/fpe/ad/sd).
My load with the old BullX 180 gr. TC cast got 1510 fps with 10 gr. of Blue Dot. A little faster I can see but 239 fps! I'd like to know what is up with that. Well that is what makes this interesting. It is accurate.
Of course it is more accurate when the darn sight (TC made aperture) doesn't fall apart while shooting! Apparently the elevation screw unscrewed itself. With my handy magnetic pointer I found it but what a pain. I'll be switching to the Williams WGRS shortly.
I crimp them pretty good and it burns noticeably "cleaner" than new Unique. Of course clean means different things to different people. Also, I can't remember if I said before, but I'm consistently getting complete burn with 10.4 gr. BD and the CCI LP primer (standard NOT magnum). The other day I kept looking down the bore for powder and didn't see any. I was also shooting over my ground sheet to catch whatever blows out of the barrel, but nada.
I am seating those XTPs to make a COL of 1.265" (average). It seems to vary some (I measured 15) and varies between 1.260 and 1.270. I haven't been able to figure out what is causing the variation but suspect that there is a minor variation in the bullet length (guess I'll have to measure the bullets now! ). I does NOT seem to be the result of high primers, headstamp "burrs", or bullet deformation.
I loaded these so that I could use them in a Delta Elite if I wanted (eventually ) without regard to the throat length. I'm off to the range this morning to zero this load and try it for groups out to 150 yards (range use allowing).
Took the new load and loaded it into Pointblank. That program says my PBR (Point Blank Range) should be 107 yards. Range tests prove it out. If you want a 150 yard gun in this caliber you need to go to the .41 Rem Mag or wildcat the 10mm on the .44 Mag. With the 10mm Auto you are down 10-12 inches at 150 yards.
Now when I shoot this out of a Delta Elite, it doesn't seem that bad because I can easily adjust but with peep sights (and probably with a scope) it is very noticeable.
However, it should still do in any farm pest like groundhogs, coyotes and such.
Accuracy? Well, with my sight set up it is no great shakes. On rocks or what have you I will hit them but on a bullseye (50 meter slow fire pistol) at 100 yards, the front post subtends so much that it is difficult to figure out how much side to side you have. Groups ran 5 shots into ½" vertically but 1-2" horizontally. That was the best I could do.
Set up for the PBR, you have to remember that you will be shooting noticeably over at 25-65 yards. This overage is 1-2" and can make the difference if you're attempting squirrel dinner. Again, for those farm pests, just hold center of mass and you'll be fine. This will work on 2 legged pests to 150 yards but much further would be a true desperation/time buying move.
Interestingly, this load of 10.4 gr. BlueDot supposedly runs 35K CUP or around 4400 for breach thrust. That's near the limit for the Contender (isn't it supposed to be about 4500?).
In any case it is a fun cartridge.
I have a 14" that I got from the old obsolete barrels list. I put a Choate extension on it and use it as a carbine barrel. I had some interesting results from my chrono run on my 14" barrel.
Load/velocity/energy/AD/SD
10 gr. Unique 155 XTP/1156/460/55/67
155 XTP Factory/1457/731/5/7
180 Hydroshock Factory/1093/477/39/54
180 Rem HP Factory/1180/556/20/27
10 gr. BlueDot 180 BullX TC/1510/911/10/16
Factory ammo sure ain't a barn burner!
Reference, pierced primers. This is interesting. I noted that some loads, and not the hot ones, have a tendency to have that look to the primers although none were actually pierced. You know, that just about pierced look. I haven't seen such primer appearance with any other cartridge regardless of pressure level. Of course all these were fired on the same frame. RELOADS don't exhibit this only FACTORY ammo. Peculiar.
I'm really getting to like the 180s in this cartridge. Guess what, just like the .38 WCF (aka .38-40).
BTW, another interesting observation. At 150 yards, all loads struck to within 3 inches of one another. My 14" with Choate extension, used as a carbine, TC aperture sight. That's with loads of 155 going 1100 fps to 180s going 1450 fps!
I can see why this level of performance had a following. Low recoil usable trajectory to 150 yards (and farther if you are have some experience), sufficient power for close range hunting but not excessive for small game and relatively low report. Would be a great cartridge to teach a youngster and transition to centerfire.
Found a box of PMC 170 gr. factory stuff and shot it up today. 1292/630/17/26 (fps/fpe/ad/sd)
I'm constantly amazed at the velocities I'm not getting. The bore expansion ratio is such with this cartridge that it does just a hair better in the 14" than it would in the 5".
Wanted to let you know the results from my 10mm Auto loads with the 180 gr. XTP and 10.4 gr. Blue Dot. I got 1271/646/23/32 (fps/fpe/ad/sd).
My load with the old BullX 180 gr. TC cast got 1510 fps with 10 gr. of Blue Dot. A little faster I can see but 239 fps! I'd like to know what is up with that. Well that is what makes this interesting. It is accurate.
Of course it is more accurate when the darn sight (TC made aperture) doesn't fall apart while shooting! Apparently the elevation screw unscrewed itself. With my handy magnetic pointer I found it but what a pain. I'll be switching to the Williams WGRS shortly.
I crimp them pretty good and it burns noticeably "cleaner" than new Unique. Of course clean means different things to different people. Also, I can't remember if I said before, but I'm consistently getting complete burn with 10.4 gr. BD and the CCI LP primer (standard NOT magnum). The other day I kept looking down the bore for powder and didn't see any. I was also shooting over my ground sheet to catch whatever blows out of the barrel, but nada.
I am seating those XTPs to make a COL of 1.265" (average). It seems to vary some (I measured 15) and varies between 1.260 and 1.270. I haven't been able to figure out what is causing the variation but suspect that there is a minor variation in the bullet length (guess I'll have to measure the bullets now! ). I does NOT seem to be the result of high primers, headstamp "burrs", or bullet deformation.
I loaded these so that I could use them in a Delta Elite if I wanted (eventually ) without regard to the throat length. I'm off to the range this morning to zero this load and try it for groups out to 150 yards (range use allowing).
Took the new load and loaded it into Pointblank. That program says my PBR (Point Blank Range) should be 107 yards. Range tests prove it out. If you want a 150 yard gun in this caliber you need to go to the .41 Rem Mag or wildcat the 10mm on the .44 Mag. With the 10mm Auto you are down 10-12 inches at 150 yards.
Now when I shoot this out of a Delta Elite, it doesn't seem that bad because I can easily adjust but with peep sights (and probably with a scope) it is very noticeable.
However, it should still do in any farm pest like groundhogs, coyotes and such.
Accuracy? Well, with my sight set up it is no great shakes. On rocks or what have you I will hit them but on a bullseye (50 meter slow fire pistol) at 100 yards, the front post subtends so much that it is difficult to figure out how much side to side you have. Groups ran 5 shots into ½" vertically but 1-2" horizontally. That was the best I could do.
Set up for the PBR, you have to remember that you will be shooting noticeably over at 25-65 yards. This overage is 1-2" and can make the difference if you're attempting squirrel dinner. Again, for those farm pests, just hold center of mass and you'll be fine. This will work on 2 legged pests to 150 yards but much further would be a true desperation/time buying move.
Interestingly, this load of 10.4 gr. BlueDot supposedly runs 35K CUP or around 4400 for breach thrust. That's near the limit for the Contender (isn't it supposed to be about 4500?).
In any case it is a fun cartridge.
Friday, May 14, 2004
I've been reloading the 10mm Auto for my 14" Contender barrel. My preferred bullet is the 180 gr. XTP and I'm currently loading it with Blue Dot (BD).
I've been reading some of the posts on the forum and following links to a certain excellent site and see that I'm not getting the results that I ought to expect.
First, I've tried various bullets. Those I had the best accuracy results with (other than the preferred 180 gr. XTP) were the 155 gr. Hornady XTP and the 180 gr. BullX (sadly departed) TC cast. I also tried various powders including BD, Unique, and 2400. In other words a wide range of powders (although the AA powders are very hard to come by around here). BD seems to be the best powder for accuracy and velocity.
Combining BD and the 180 XTP I worked up to the Hogdon's Annual Manual max of 10.4 gr. of BD. Velocity from my 14" barrel was only 1270 some fps. Factory loads from Remington, PMC, Federal (Hydro Shock), and Hornady did no better. Of course the Hornady factory 155 gr. XTP loading was an exception and produced about 1450 fps. One notably surprising thing is that the BullX 180 gr. cast went 1458 fps (or so, I don't have my records here at work) over 10 gr. of BD. Now, I expect jacketed bullets to be a bit slower, but 200 fps?
Reading posts here and there and some associated files, I see that this performance is generally what can be expected from 5" barrels. That's kinda disappointing but not really.
My goal was to load the XTP to .38-40 rifle velocities, or about 1350 fps and I'm only about 80-100 fps too slow.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
I've been reading some of the posts on the forum and following links to a certain excellent site and see that I'm not getting the results that I ought to expect.
First, I've tried various bullets. Those I had the best accuracy results with (other than the preferred 180 gr. XTP) were the 155 gr. Hornady XTP and the 180 gr. BullX (sadly departed) TC cast. I also tried various powders including BD, Unique, and 2400. In other words a wide range of powders (although the AA powders are very hard to come by around here). BD seems to be the best powder for accuracy and velocity.
Combining BD and the 180 XTP I worked up to the Hogdon's Annual Manual max of 10.4 gr. of BD. Velocity from my 14" barrel was only 1270 some fps. Factory loads from Remington, PMC, Federal (Hydro Shock), and Hornady did no better. Of course the Hornady factory 155 gr. XTP loading was an exception and produced about 1450 fps. One notably surprising thing is that the BullX 180 gr. cast went 1458 fps (or so, I don't have my records here at work) over 10 gr. of BD. Now, I expect jacketed bullets to be a bit slower, but 200 fps?
Reading posts here and there and some associated files, I see that this performance is generally what can be expected from 5" barrels. That's kinda disappointing but not really.
My goal was to load the XTP to .38-40 rifle velocities, or about 1350 fps and I'm only about 80-100 fps too slow.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Tuesday, May 04, 2004
Now, let me share an experience I've had.
Last fall I worked up a load of 2.5 gr. Unique in .38 Special cases under a 205 gr. bullet. This was to be used in a .357 Maximum rifle for small game. It would group into 1-1.5 inches and about 2 inches low of point of aim at 50 yards (sights set for the full-throttle deer load). At 25 yards they were spot on. I could see using these for a wide variety of small game including ground hogs, fox and "others" of that size. I loaded 50 to have to use and tested part of that batch to make certain I had it right. All was well. However, I had never chronographed that load. I did use one round to take one squirrel (on the ground).
Well, today I took it with me when I went shooting the Max (testing Lil'Gun loads). VERY disappointing! What happened! Well today (temp 59 degrees, similar to when I worked up the load) velocities went from 83 fps (yes, not a typo) to 340 fps. Most were striking 2 feet low at 50 yards (but 3 were spot on! ). These loads were useless today.
About midway through the test it occurred to me that they had been stored bullet down in the box and maybe the powder was not next to the primer. All following rounds (18) were given a sharp (but safe) rap on the bench before firing and the rifle barrel was elevated immediately before firing. Little if any improvement. Indeed, I did get a good group, just 2 feet too low! The 3 that were right on were from the first 22 rounds...
I don't know what happened here but I'm going to try a few more and see what happens...
Last fall I worked up a load of 2.5 gr. Unique in .38 Special cases under a 205 gr. bullet. This was to be used in a .357 Maximum rifle for small game. It would group into 1-1.5 inches and about 2 inches low of point of aim at 50 yards (sights set for the full-throttle deer load). At 25 yards they were spot on. I could see using these for a wide variety of small game including ground hogs, fox and "others" of that size. I loaded 50 to have to use and tested part of that batch to make certain I had it right. All was well. However, I had never chronographed that load. I did use one round to take one squirrel (on the ground).
Well, today I took it with me when I went shooting the Max (testing Lil'Gun loads). VERY disappointing! What happened! Well today (temp 59 degrees, similar to when I worked up the load) velocities went from 83 fps (yes, not a typo) to 340 fps. Most were striking 2 feet low at 50 yards (but 3 were spot on! ). These loads were useless today.
About midway through the test it occurred to me that they had been stored bullet down in the box and maybe the powder was not next to the primer. All following rounds (18) were given a sharp (but safe) rap on the bench before firing and the rifle barrel was elevated immediately before firing. Little if any improvement. Indeed, I did get a good group, just 2 feet too low! The 3 that were right on were from the first 22 rounds...
I don't know what happened here but I'm going to try a few more and see what happens...
Monday, May 03, 2004
I've recently been working with the .357 Maximum and Lil'Gun. Loads shown at the Dan Wesson page show a max of 23 gr. with 180 gr. bullets and 21.5 gr. with 200 gr. cast bullets. My experimentation took me to these limits with the 180 gr. Hornady SSP and 200 gr. Hornady RN. However, there was a problem with "sticky" cases. IOW, pressures are too high. So I dropped a grain for each and the 200 gr. Hornady still does 1939 fps (excellent) for 1670 fpe, 24 fps AD and a 28 SD. The hotter charge was better in that regard but one does not want to be forced to aid in the extraction of cases. You should just pluck them from the chamber without the use of descriptive phrases!
With the 180 gr. SSP, I only dropped the charge by .5 gr. and in a repeat of the previous experiment, velocities did not change (increased slightly!) but also the AD and SD increased substantially. I'm going to drop this charge the other .5 gr. (as I should have done) and try again. If all goes as before, velocities will average just below 2100 fps and the AD and SD numbers will be similar to the load with the 200 gr. Hornady.
I think it is very interesting that I can beat FACTORY .35 Remington loads with this case. Still, there are limits to what you can do and reloads in the .35 Rem. will only do about 2000-2100 fps with loads safe in both my M8 Remington autoloader and the Contender carbine. However, I have pushed the 200 gr. Hornady RN to 2200+ fps in the Contender.
*********
I received the first 50 of 100 bullets from Stone Fence today. I think I'll be getting 100 new cases and loading them all with this bullet and 32 gr. of RL-7. That will probably do me with this cartridge for the rest of my days.
With the 180 gr. SSP, I only dropped the charge by .5 gr. and in a repeat of the previous experiment, velocities did not change (increased slightly!) but also the AD and SD increased substantially. I'm going to drop this charge the other .5 gr. (as I should have done) and try again. If all goes as before, velocities will average just below 2100 fps and the AD and SD numbers will be similar to the load with the 200 gr. Hornady.
I think it is very interesting that I can beat FACTORY .35 Remington loads with this case. Still, there are limits to what you can do and reloads in the .35 Rem. will only do about 2000-2100 fps with loads safe in both my M8 Remington autoloader and the Contender carbine. However, I have pushed the 200 gr. Hornady RN to 2200+ fps in the Contender.
I received the first 50 of 100 bullets from Stone Fence today. I think I'll be getting 100 new cases and loading them all with this bullet and 32 gr. of RL-7. That will probably do me with this cartridge for the rest of my days.
Friday, April 30, 2004
I did indeed try the Sam Fadala load of 31 gr. of H4198 as well as another suggested load of 32 gr. of RL-7. BOTH loads gave velocities of about 2000 fps. I don't have the data here at work with me but I think they were within 50 fps of each other with the same bullets. I also tried them with the Barnes Original (you would use the .377" but I used the .375") and got the same performance and case head expansion.
Sam apparently uses both the Barnes and the factory bullets (which he pulls, then dumps the charge and then loads with his own charge). I would prefer the Barnes at this velocity if using this load on bear. The factory bullets are built for the 1300 fps range AND for deer. I don't think I'd be happy with penetration when started at 2000 fps but the Barnes is more heavily constructed and should do fine.
The load I decided to use is the RL-7 load of 32 gr. It apparently produced less pressure and was the faster of the two loads. Might be picking nits, but I liked it better. I used CCI LR primers and was careful to trim my cases and to use a slight roll crimp. This generally works well.
I've been using the Cast Performance 265 gr. GC but only with 28 gr. of IMR 3031 which gives me about 1560 fps (if memory serves). I would think that about 30 gr. of RL-7 or IMR-4198 (up to you to work this up in your gun) would go about 1900 fps. Of course it has to fit or it will lead the bore.
I've gotten Dave Deering (Stone Fence) of FL to make me some of his bullets and they are outstanding!
I like my Contender because I can switch back and forth and only need to buy an additional barrel (without additional firearms purchase, at least in my jurisdiction). The .38-55 is fully the equal of the .375 Win.
One other note. The Hornady 220 gr. .375" bullets will probably NOT work in your .38-55 as their form is incorrect to work with the .38-55 case and throat(s). I don't know about the Sierra.
Sam apparently uses both the Barnes and the factory bullets (which he pulls, then dumps the charge and then loads with his own charge). I would prefer the Barnes at this velocity if using this load on bear. The factory bullets are built for the 1300 fps range AND for deer. I don't think I'd be happy with penetration when started at 2000 fps but the Barnes is more heavily constructed and should do fine.
The load I decided to use is the RL-7 load of 32 gr. It apparently produced less pressure and was the faster of the two loads. Might be picking nits, but I liked it better. I used CCI LR primers and was careful to trim my cases and to use a slight roll crimp. This generally works well.
I've been using the Cast Performance 265 gr. GC but only with 28 gr. of IMR 3031 which gives me about 1560 fps (if memory serves). I would think that about 30 gr. of RL-7 or IMR-4198 (up to you to work this up in your gun) would go about 1900 fps. Of course it has to fit or it will lead the bore.
I've gotten Dave Deering (Stone Fence) of FL to make me some of his bullets and they are outstanding!
I like my Contender because I can switch back and forth and only need to buy an additional barrel (without additional firearms purchase, at least in my jurisdiction). The .38-55 is fully the equal of the .375 Win.
One other note. The Hornady 220 gr. .375" bullets will probably NOT work in your .38-55 as their form is incorrect to work with the .38-55 case and throat(s). I don't know about the Sierra.
Sunday, March 14, 2004
Pedersoli Brown Bess Trade Gun
1. In VA, it was not legal for deer hunting except during the regular gun season. This might not be a problem for you. It was for me. Where you live makes a big difference.
2. The bore is so big that I "feel" that it is too big for some other tasks like groundhog hunting (but not really). It works great on groundhogs with shot at 15 yards (like any other shotgun) and with heavier shot does well on other such quarry.
3. It uses quite a bit of powder although not that much less than say a .69 or .62 (20 ga.) We're talking 115 gr. vs 90 gr. for the smaller 20 ga. smoothbores.
4. It uses a lot more lead for ball.
5. Recommended ball size is .735" and that is incorrect, get the .715" mold. That size ball will work patched and in cartridge and when the gun is fouled. I can see why the military issued the .690" round ball.
6. For only slightly more than half again what this costs I could have had a custom smoothie that would be appropriate for French and Indian or Revolutionary War reenacting. This gun is not strictly accurate for those uses.
7. 12 ga. wads are not recommended 11 ga. is but 12 ga. work best in my gun.
8. I've not been able to get accurate much past 50 yards (with ball) and I don't feel good using it past 40 yards. That is MY level of skill.
9. You can easily make up buck and ball loads. However, they are not really good to use on deer. That warrants a long discussion of its own.
10. You can get all supplies by mail order. There are several suppliers.
11. The full length musket is a LOT of gun.
12. It weighs more than you expect. This might not be a problem but for some people it becomes one.
13. The balance point is right at the lock. Try carrying it one handed for any distance in your right hand and you'll see what I mean.
Links:
- Track of the Wolf
- Dixie Gun Works
- Flintlock FAQs
- Log Cabin Shop
- The Rifle Shoppe, Inc.
- American Longrifles (has a good forum)
You will also need a lot of accouterments. This alone will be an area of study. I'd be happy to answer any questions. If I don't know, I'll say so and point you to somebody who does.
Use of the smoothbore flintlocks is now legal during the Virginia muzzleloading deer season!
Thursday, March 11, 2004
A recent topic on a forum got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing). The following is a partial result.
30+ years ago there weren't many good gun magazines. As a kid I was happy to get anything to read. Often I didn't know about a magazine until I might run across it in a book store while traveling. Just wasn't the money available then as there is now to spend on this. You know this is true because of the huge number (compared to 1965) of such magazines available.
Unfortunately, that means that the best writing is now diluted. If they are lucky, a magazine editor will get a single good writer. A couple of magazines will manage to get two published in a single issue. I know there are several writers hanging out here now and then and I mean no disrespect (I've done some technical writing and know how it goes) but fellows, I've got very few favorite writers. It doesn't help that I've got 30+ years of experience and can sharpshoot the articles.
#1 are the old and now sadly departed writers: Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jack O'Connor, Francis Sell, Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton. Not quite departed, you can include Ken Waters in that list.
#2 and of the current crop is probably a tie between Ross Seyfried, John Taffin and Brian Pearce. I think Ross Seyfried's articles on the old guns and making them bark is one of the great joys of my life. Because of him, I keep my eyes open for my opportunity to own such guns and he writes well enough that I can actually get some vicarious pleasure from his experiments. I don't like every article Taffin and Pearce write but like them enough that I'll at least give it a look regardless of the subject. They are both capable of writing complete technical articles that are easy to follow and understand.
#3 might be Sam Fadala. His style is a little choppy but he writes about guns that interest me. He is also a bit of the rebel and will try things that others would not. You can also tell that he's done it and not read about it.
#4 is everybody else. Most write about things that seldom interest me. This doesn't mean that I have a personal grudge against any of them. They are trying to make a living doing something they have an interest in. How many here can say the same thing? There are quite a few writers who are simply grinding out articles. Craig Boddington, Phil Shoemaker, Mike Venturino, and John Barsness often write articles that interest me. I do understand what's said about an inability to properly frame a story in particular the articles mentioned. I read both of them and agree. They won't get clipped and saved.
Subject matter (i.e. editorial content) is another issue. That is a matter of who the magazine has as a target audience and who is editing. Editing also affects the articles. I've seen some perfectly good articles edited to an unrecognizable state by those who don't understand the subject. Good editors are as hard to find as good writers.
I take American Rifleman because I'm a member of the NRA). I subscribe to Rifle, Handloader , Successful Hunting (mostly for Ross's articles), Muzzleloader, Muzzleblasts (again, I'm a member of the NMLRA), Blackpowder Hunting (more Seyfried articles), Traditional Bowhunter, Primitive Archer and my wife subscribed me to Peterson's Hunting (no, I never express disappointment in a gift ;)). I sometimes buy other magazines (yeah, I get sucked in now and then) but lately it is the odd Shotgun News or Shooting Illustrated. This for specific reasons such as a particularly interesting article.
There are lots of other magazines out there. Most of us aren't aware of all of them. This is far better coverage than existed 35 years ago and probably a good thing. It is also more mainstream. A lot of the simplicity of the articles is directly related to all the new shooters coming into the sport and their need for info they understand and can use. Now having new shooters is a very GOOD thing indeed. If I have to look a bit harder for good magazine articles because of it, well I'll put up with that.
30+ years ago there weren't many good gun magazines. As a kid I was happy to get anything to read. Often I didn't know about a magazine until I might run across it in a book store while traveling. Just wasn't the money available then as there is now to spend on this. You know this is true because of the huge number (compared to 1965) of such magazines available.
Unfortunately, that means that the best writing is now diluted. If they are lucky, a magazine editor will get a single good writer. A couple of magazines will manage to get two published in a single issue. I know there are several writers hanging out here now and then and I mean no disrespect (I've done some technical writing and know how it goes) but fellows, I've got very few favorite writers. It doesn't help that I've got 30+ years of experience and can sharpshoot the articles.
#1 are the old and now sadly departed writers: Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jack O'Connor, Francis Sell, Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton. Not quite departed, you can include Ken Waters in that list.
#2 and of the current crop is probably a tie between Ross Seyfried, John Taffin and Brian Pearce. I think Ross Seyfried's articles on the old guns and making them bark is one of the great joys of my life. Because of him, I keep my eyes open for my opportunity to own such guns and he writes well enough that I can actually get some vicarious pleasure from his experiments. I don't like every article Taffin and Pearce write but like them enough that I'll at least give it a look regardless of the subject. They are both capable of writing complete technical articles that are easy to follow and understand.
#3 might be Sam Fadala. His style is a little choppy but he writes about guns that interest me. He is also a bit of the rebel and will try things that others would not. You can also tell that he's done it and not read about it.
#4 is everybody else. Most write about things that seldom interest me. This doesn't mean that I have a personal grudge against any of them. They are trying to make a living doing something they have an interest in. How many here can say the same thing? There are quite a few writers who are simply grinding out articles. Craig Boddington, Phil Shoemaker, Mike Venturino, and John Barsness often write articles that interest me. I do understand what's said about an inability to properly frame a story in particular the articles mentioned. I read both of them and agree. They won't get clipped and saved.
Subject matter (i.e. editorial content) is another issue. That is a matter of who the magazine has as a target audience and who is editing. Editing also affects the articles. I've seen some perfectly good articles edited to an unrecognizable state by those who don't understand the subject. Good editors are as hard to find as good writers.
I take American Rifleman because I'm a member of the NRA). I subscribe to Rifle, Handloader , Successful Hunting (mostly for Ross's articles), Muzzleloader, Muzzleblasts (again, I'm a member of the NMLRA), Blackpowder Hunting (more Seyfried articles), Traditional Bowhunter, Primitive Archer and my wife subscribed me to Peterson's Hunting (no, I never express disappointment in a gift ;)). I sometimes buy other magazines (yeah, I get sucked in now and then) but lately it is the odd Shotgun News or Shooting Illustrated. This for specific reasons such as a particularly interesting article.
There are lots of other magazines out there. Most of us aren't aware of all of them. This is far better coverage than existed 35 years ago and probably a good thing. It is also more mainstream. A lot of the simplicity of the articles is directly related to all the new shooters coming into the sport and their need for info they understand and can use. Now having new shooters is a very GOOD thing indeed. If I have to look a bit harder for good magazine articles because of it, well I'll put up with that.
Saturday, March 06, 2004
I am going to try to bring together some related posts I've made to various forums...
*********
Is there something wrong with TC's .35 Rem barrels for the Contender?
With all the TC made barrels I've seen the problems aren't in how the guns are bored (I think they are very consistent in that regard) but in how they are chambered, crowned or finished. Finishing is a minor problem that brings the price down for the astute buyer. Incorrect crowning can be corrected as well. However, guns that are improperly chambered are a big problem. Often, only rechambering to a larger cartridge can solve the problems with the chamber and/or throat. That can be expensive as sometimes that also requires a foray into the world of wildcats (i.e. .358 Bellm or .358 JDJ) and additional dies, etc. Sometimes, that won't work either as there have been reports of chambers so far out of kilter that they simply can't be repaired. Bobby has probably seen a lot more .35 Rem barrels than I have and TC doesn't have a great rep for quality control so there may be something to the idea that the .35 Rem barrels are more likely to have problems.
IME, the .35 Rem and it's relatively small shoulder is a big problem for some reloaders who don't pay attention to detail or, perhaps, are somewhat lacadaisical in their approach to reloading. This even in perfectly set up barrels. When the dies are improperly set, there can be problems with proper functioning or case life. Many shooters will blame it on the barrel and move on.
I personally think the reason there are so many .35 Rem. barrels out there is that the .35 Rem is too mundane for a lot of shooters. Sure, it was a good first barrel but later... There are a LOT of options, and most want to try them. Rather than simply accumulate barrels (HEY!, don't look at me ), they sell them off and use the cash to buy new barrels, dies, etc. Contender shooters as a group seem to be more likely to do this than most shooters. We seem to love to buy, trade, accessorize, etc. However, it seems to me that there is a lot more of this activity among shooters than 30 years ago when many shooters only hauled out the guns to kill pests in the garden, go quail or dove hunting or for a couple of weekends of deer hunting.
*********
The .357 Maximum...
I have a TC factory 21" barrel for my Contender. Excellent.
There seems to be a lot of stuff out there on the .357 Max and some of it seems to be true! The best powders seem to be W680, AA1680, H110/W296 and H4227. Lil'Gun might be in the running here, too. I'm going to be trying it this summer. Remember to use small rifle primers.
In the longer rifle barrels I think it is possible to get 2000 fps with the 200 gr. jacketed RN and AA1680. 2000 fps for the various 180 gr. jacketed bullets seems to be no great thing. 21 gr. of H110 and the 180 gr. Hornady SSP gets 1960 fps in my gun. This is plenty good. With the Leadheads 205 gr. LBT GC I get 1600+ fps from a charge of 17.5 gr. of H4227. Now this is a fun load to shoot and it is still effective.
Some people say that it reminds them of the .38-55. I think they're right. I'm hoping I can get a 200 gr. to leave my barrel at 1900-2000 fps using AA1680 or Lil'Gun and if so it will be very close to that .38-55 255 gr. jacketed moving out at 1850 fps. The .357 Maximum is really a hidden jewell.
Of course, it is basically the .38 Extra Long. One of the recommended loads for that cartridge is 6 gr. of Unique under a 150 gr. cast bullet. Using 158 gr. swaged lead bullets with this charge gives .38 Special peformance from the rifle and is loads of fun for small game and plinking. Great training round, too. In fact, the .357 Max is capable of swallowing all the .38 Special and .357 Magnum ammo you care to feed it. Just be sure to clean out that chamber later so that the Max cases have no problems sliding into the chamber.
Is there something wrong with TC's .35 Rem barrels for the Contender?
With all the TC made barrels I've seen the problems aren't in how the guns are bored (I think they are very consistent in that regard) but in how they are chambered, crowned or finished. Finishing is a minor problem that brings the price down for the astute buyer. Incorrect crowning can be corrected as well. However, guns that are improperly chambered are a big problem. Often, only rechambering to a larger cartridge can solve the problems with the chamber and/or throat. That can be expensive as sometimes that also requires a foray into the world of wildcats (i.e. .358 Bellm or .358 JDJ) and additional dies, etc. Sometimes, that won't work either as there have been reports of chambers so far out of kilter that they simply can't be repaired. Bobby has probably seen a lot more .35 Rem barrels than I have and TC doesn't have a great rep for quality control so there may be something to the idea that the .35 Rem barrels are more likely to have problems.
IME, the .35 Rem and it's relatively small shoulder is a big problem for some reloaders who don't pay attention to detail or, perhaps, are somewhat lacadaisical in their approach to reloading. This even in perfectly set up barrels. When the dies are improperly set, there can be problems with proper functioning or case life. Many shooters will blame it on the barrel and move on.
I personally think the reason there are so many .35 Rem. barrels out there is that the .35 Rem is too mundane for a lot of shooters. Sure, it was a good first barrel but later... There are a LOT of options, and most want to try them. Rather than simply accumulate barrels (HEY!, don't look at me ), they sell them off and use the cash to buy new barrels, dies, etc. Contender shooters as a group seem to be more likely to do this than most shooters. We seem to love to buy, trade, accessorize, etc. However, it seems to me that there is a lot more of this activity among shooters than 30 years ago when many shooters only hauled out the guns to kill pests in the garden, go quail or dove hunting or for a couple of weekends of deer hunting.
The .357 Maximum...
I have a TC factory 21" barrel for my Contender. Excellent.
There seems to be a lot of stuff out there on the .357 Max and some of it seems to be true! The best powders seem to be W680, AA1680, H110/W296 and H4227. Lil'Gun might be in the running here, too. I'm going to be trying it this summer. Remember to use small rifle primers.
In the longer rifle barrels I think it is possible to get 2000 fps with the 200 gr. jacketed RN and AA1680. 2000 fps for the various 180 gr. jacketed bullets seems to be no great thing. 21 gr. of H110 and the 180 gr. Hornady SSP gets 1960 fps in my gun. This is plenty good. With the Leadheads 205 gr. LBT GC I get 1600+ fps from a charge of 17.5 gr. of H4227. Now this is a fun load to shoot and it is still effective.
Some people say that it reminds them of the .38-55. I think they're right. I'm hoping I can get a 200 gr. to leave my barrel at 1900-2000 fps using AA1680 or Lil'Gun and if so it will be very close to that .38-55 255 gr. jacketed moving out at 1850 fps. The .357 Maximum is really a hidden jewell.
Of course, it is basically the .38 Extra Long. One of the recommended loads for that cartridge is 6 gr. of Unique under a 150 gr. cast bullet. Using 158 gr. swaged lead bullets with this charge gives .38 Special peformance from the rifle and is loads of fun for small game and plinking. Great training round, too. In fact, the .357 Max is capable of swallowing all the .38 Special and .357 Magnum ammo you care to feed it. Just be sure to clean out that chamber later so that the Max cases have no problems sliding into the chamber.
Friday, February 20, 2004
For years I carried a .45 Colt Combat Commander. Given the clothing I was wearing, it was easy to conceal AND with small kids in the house, I wasn't going to leave a gun out anyway. At night I took it off and then set it up at bedside. However...
The wife took exception to my having a cocked pistol next to the bed. Explanations of the mechanics were futile. Now the kids are grown, the daily clothing and work schedule have changed and has been easier to have a S&W M13 3" or Ruger Speed-Six (both .357s and no longer made, get a M65LS instead) for both uses. When I leave the house (I now do most of my non-profit work at the house), it is easy to pick it up and go. The springs are always at rest and the cartridge will do what I want including required applications at the farm.
Sometimes either of these guns is just too big. Then I carry a S&W M36. Very little transition needed.
I have used an alternative which I consider inadequate for winter work due to the heavy clothing some people might be wearing. That is the Pistolet Makarov using the 9x18mm cartridge. Pluses include low cost (VERY important to some people) of both the firearm and the ammo (which you can get for $60 for 500 rounds delivered!), light recoil (like the .38 Special), moderate capacity (8-9 rounds or more), and the double action feature (which makes MY wife very happy). Negatives are the bulk of the gun for the round utilized, what might be considered under-penetration by the 9x18 HP round, relatively limited effective range (compared to the heavier .38/.357 and .45 bullets), and limited range of support equipment such as holsters (although this has improved).
Most people don't have to use their carry gun on the farm but many do have families with whom they want to or must interact and whose skill set they must consider. For me, the answer is a .357 Magnum or .38 Special level load (including the 9x18mm Makarov) in a double action pistol or revolver.
The wife took exception to my having a cocked pistol next to the bed. Explanations of the mechanics were futile. Now the kids are grown, the daily clothing and work schedule have changed and has been easier to have a S&W M13 3" or Ruger Speed-Six (both .357s and no longer made, get a M65LS instead) for both uses. When I leave the house (I now do most of my non-profit work at the house), it is easy to pick it up and go. The springs are always at rest and the cartridge will do what I want including required applications at the farm.
Sometimes either of these guns is just too big. Then I carry a S&W M36. Very little transition needed.
I have used an alternative which I consider inadequate for winter work due to the heavy clothing some people might be wearing. That is the Pistolet Makarov using the 9x18mm cartridge. Pluses include low cost (VERY important to some people) of both the firearm and the ammo (which you can get for $60 for 500 rounds delivered!), light recoil (like the .38 Special), moderate capacity (8-9 rounds or more), and the double action feature (which makes MY wife very happy). Negatives are the bulk of the gun for the round utilized, what might be considered under-penetration by the 9x18 HP round, relatively limited effective range (compared to the heavier .38/.357 and .45 bullets), and limited range of support equipment such as holsters (although this has improved).
Most people don't have to use their carry gun on the farm but many do have families with whom they want to or must interact and whose skill set they must consider. For me, the answer is a .357 Magnum or .38 Special level load (including the 9x18mm Makarov) in a double action pistol or revolver.
Thursday, February 12, 2004
I was recently reminded that some people don't vote. They don't vote for a variety of "reasons". To me any "reason" to not vote is simply an excuse (lest you're in a coma or unexpectedly bedridden).
I always vote. Always.
Some 372 years ago my first European ancestors arrived in this country. It took a while, but they finally really got their hair up and took a chance to stand on the side of liberty. I believe that my first relative to stand under fire did so April 19, 1776 in a little village called Lexington. There were several more who took up arms in support of what was the beginning of the free world. One relative by marriage shot a certain General Frasier at Freemans Farm (Saratoga, NY). Since then, there has been at least one direct ancestor of mine who served in time of war, the only exception being my Grandfather who was rejected for having TB in 1917. I would hate to think that the my right to have my voice heard through my representatives, fought for by my grandfathers (and suffered through by the grandmothers left behind), was lost due to my laziness or ignorance.
Sloth and apathy are the allies of evil. When you don't vote you are in fact voting for evil. As God is my witness I believe this. To me voting is a sacred duty, a sacrament of free will, free will given by God.
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Now some might think this over the top, but consider that your shooting rights are controlled for a reason. That reason is to limit your free will, not to protect or defend others but to keep you from defending yourself and your family. Your vote is the only thing that prevents these people from winning here. I also believe that freedom here gives hope and encouragement to the many millions worldwide that they might also be free. It isn't just about guns...
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So far as actual shooting, I've not had the time to fire a single round.
I always vote. Always.
Some 372 years ago my first European ancestors arrived in this country. It took a while, but they finally really got their hair up and took a chance to stand on the side of liberty. I believe that my first relative to stand under fire did so April 19, 1776 in a little village called Lexington. There were several more who took up arms in support of what was the beginning of the free world. One relative by marriage shot a certain General Frasier at Freemans Farm (Saratoga, NY). Since then, there has been at least one direct ancestor of mine who served in time of war, the only exception being my Grandfather who was rejected for having TB in 1917. I would hate to think that the my right to have my voice heard through my representatives, fought for by my grandfathers (and suffered through by the grandmothers left behind), was lost due to my laziness or ignorance.
Sloth and apathy are the allies of evil. When you don't vote you are in fact voting for evil. As God is my witness I believe this. To me voting is a sacred duty, a sacrament of free will, free will given by God.
Now some might think this over the top, but consider that your shooting rights are controlled for a reason. That reason is to limit your free will, not to protect or defend others but to keep you from defending yourself and your family. Your vote is the only thing that prevents these people from winning here. I also believe that freedom here gives hope and encouragement to the many millions worldwide that they might also be free. It isn't just about guns...
So far as actual shooting, I've not had the time to fire a single round.
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