I'm fairly new to the Winchesters and levers in general. On the NEF forum many have re-chambered their 357 Mag single shot rifles to .357 Maximum.The conversation then goes into the various .357/.38 cartridges and on and on...
I realize the differences in the two type of guns and cartridges, but was wondering if anyone knew if a 357 Mag Winchester could chamber and eject the 357 Maximum? The Max is .315" longer overall.
I have a Max albeit in an other rifle (a Contender Carbine). With my background I am often asked for the "final word" on the subject.
I wouldn't mess with a perfectly good Winchester, unless you're positive the .357 Maximum has some kind of inherent qualities that improves it's performance over the .357 Magnum which I think is perfectly adequate in a rifle. Further, there are advantages to a rifle so chambered as compared to one chambered for the .357 Maximum. Increased power isn't always a better choice. Yes, the .357 Max can be loaded to approximate the .35 Remington but it is just cheaper to get the Marlin .35 Remington chambered rifle. Why not just get a .35 Remington? Because you can't shoot the .357 Magnum or .38 Special in it. The Magnum in a rifle approximates the Maximum in a pistol/revolver. The pressures are about the same for the .357 Mag and Max (SAAMI spec for the 357 Max is 40k psi, 5k more than the 357 Mag.) so overpressure is not an issue and the case head is the same, so bolt thrust is not an issue either.
I know of one person who converted a Marlin 1894C several years ago. The .357 Max cartridge is so long that by the time the action is opened up you get a very long (100 degrees?) rough lever throw. His would fire .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .357 Maximum interchangeably but only if the lever is operated quickly and briskly. The Marlin M1894 had the lever throw increased because the bolt has to retract farther in order to clear the extra length of the loaded .357 Maximum round. That shooter did not feel that the expense was justified by the firearm's performance.
One shooter ordered a new Winchester 94 for this very project. The Winchester action is plenty long with room to spare. His view was that the .357 Maximum was operating at the same pressures as a .357 Magnum, the larger case of the Max allows for more powder, and will give more power than the magnum. It was supposed that the longer 94 action will make all the difference. Probably all that will be necessary is to run a 357 Max finish reamer in the chamber and take a file to the shoulder on the cartridge follower. Tycer L____ reports that his Winchester 94 .357 Magnum would actually accept .360 Dan Wesson ammunition. The .360 DW runs pretty close to .357 Maximum performance, but not quite.
It is true that most hunters do not handload, and it is reasonable to start a youngster on a gun with light .38 Special ammo and work up to some heavy Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, or Grizzly .357 Magnum or Maximum for hunting. There are no really light recoiling .30-30 loads for the non-handloader, but there are plenty of .38 Specials out there, at low cost. It could even double as a small game gun with wadcutters, and is excellent for self defense. As the child grows older and taller, a thick recoil pad can be added to increase the length of pull to the normal 13 1/2 inches.
Paco Kelly once responded with this...
I WAITED FOR EVERYONE TO GET THEIR FEELINGS OUT... HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS... FIRST YOU NEED AN EXCELLENT GUNSMITH, NOT A PARTS CHANGER... THE BOLT HAS A BOLT STOP PIN, THAT CAN BE CHANGED FOR THE LONGER THROW...THAT TAKES KNOW HOW SO YOU DON'T HAVE OVER TRAVEL, YES IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER DRAW DOWN ON THE LEVER...AND IT WILL TAKE THE SAME DRAW FROM THAT TIME ON FOR 357S AND 38 SPECIALS, DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE MARLIN... BUT IT'S NO PROBLEM WITH MY WINCHESTERS... THE REAL PROBLEMS... SOMETIMES WORK HAS TO BE DONE ON THE LIFTER TO ALLOW THE FULL LENGTH OF THE 357 MAXI WITH A GOOD SIZED CAST OR JACKETED BULLET TO CLEAR THE TUBE... AGAIN A GOOD GUNSMITH.. I HAVE HAD IT DONE TO TWO 94S ONE WAS A 20 INCH BARREL... THE OTHER WAS A 24 INCH BARREL, IN VELOCITY BOTH WERE WELL WORTH IT...THE 20" GAVE AROUND 250 FPS+ MORE AND THE 24 INCH GAVE ANOTHER 150+ OVER THAT.... IT IS WORTH IT IF YOU DON'T MIND THE COST OF GUNSMITHING...and later...
I STILL HAVE THE 24 INCH BARREL XTR 94 AND IT IS A BEAUT... ACCURACY HASN'T CHANGED STILL GOOD TO EXCELLENT... THE POWDERS USED IN THE MAXI ROUND HAVE CHANGED FROM THE 357 POWDERS... MINE TENDS TO LIKE SLOWER THAN h110 AND ww296 THOUGH THEY DO WORK... OF COURSE AS MOST OF MY READERS KNOW I USE 2400 IN EVERYTHING.. BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE TOP VELOCITY... 4227 IS IN A GOOD BURNING RATE.... HOPE THIS HELPS THE REAL KEY IS THE GUNSMITH.... PACO
it was worth it... the efficiency of the cartridge and the velocity gain are significant... different gunsmiths will charge different prices... but it should be upper limit $150....pacoAs I noted in my article on my Contender carbine, the straight wall case and ability to use carbide dies gave substantial advantage in case life and no need for sizing lube.
In my Max I can just get (with Lil'Gun) 2000 fps with 200 gr. bullets and 2150 fps with 180 gr. bullets. That is "max"ed out! Every rifle is different but I think that those fellows getting 2000 fps with 200 gr. bullets and H110/W296 are smokin' commo wire. Some are even using 2-4" shorter barrels than I am. I can't get those results (or even close) with H110/W296 without signs of excessive pressure.
It doesn't make sense that the MAG should come close to MAX performance and it doesn't in my rifle. I get 1650+ fps from the 180 gr. Rem SJHP and for 2000 fps must go to the 158 gr. (I used the XTP but the Gold Dot will do it as well).
One thing one can do, albeit at similar expense, is to rebarrel a .44 Mag 1894 to .357 Bain and Davis. This cartridge will give similar ballistic performance when compared to the .357 Max but not without effort. It is rightly saved as discussion for another time.
I have been trying to get a Marlin 1984C converted to the Maximum cartridge. I bought the rifle in the second year of production. I have been through three gunsmiths who said they knew how to do the conversion and their butchering required a bunch of new parts to bring it back to the starting point. Then I'd start again.
ReplyDeleteApparently none understood how the Marlin actually functions. The 4th smith took my suggestion as to how to change the carrier timing to get the cartridge to the chamber. But, his execution was so poor that the rifle locked up with almost every stroke.
I then contacted a smith who was very experienced in cowboy competition prep of Marlins. Cost me $500 and it STILL would not feed. Problem was obviously to me when I received the non-functioning rifle. Minor polish work on the carrier wings got it feeding PERFECTLY, BUT then I discovered that, for reasons I have not been able to fathom, if the trigger is pulled during the lever closing the gun will fire long before the bolt is in battery. Luckily I discovered this malfunction while testing with primed but powderless dummy cartridges. If the trigger was inadvertently pulled during the closing part of the lever stroke, the hammer would drop and hit the primer hard enough to fire it when the cartridge was less than half way into the chamber.
The last smith says he will not stand behind the work as it was "fixing" what someone else had done, not "his" work. I am close, but the rifle is not safe to cycle with live ammo.
Firing it single shot with 296 powder and 180 Remington hollow points produces better accuracy than the original 357 Mag chambering did. Let me say that ejection and feed are perfect, but I am at a loss as to whom I can trust to fix the fact that a trigger pull before the bolt fully closes will drop the hammer.
I have a Marlin 1894 in 357 Mag that is now converted to 357 Maximum. It took FOUR different gunsmiths to create the rifle. First one screwed it so badly he gave me my money back.
ReplyDeleteThe Second Smith restored it to normal function with 357 mags. The third perfected what the first one attempted by refining the new placement of spring loaded plunger that times the lifting of the cartridge to get it aligned with the chamber, but the work was crud and the cartridges would not feed consistently.
The last Smith specialized in Marlins. He Slick'ed up the gun as if I were going to use it in Cowboy competition. But, the cartridges would still not feed without jamming between the forward guide fingers(wings) on the carrier and the bolt...nose down solid lockup requiring disassemble to fix every time it happened, which was every other cartridge.
With some care with a Dremel tool and a polishing bob I was able to eliminate the sharp edges that were causing the problem. His work cost me $500. Now the rifle fed and ejected perfectly, BUT, I discovered that, now that I could consistently cycle the action, inadvertent finger on the trigger would cause the hammer to fall before the bolt was halfway closed!!! Hitting the test primer in the dummy rounds hard enough to fire it. I almost cried.
The last Smith would not fix it because it wasn't "his work." He was "just fixing" the previous work.
Firing the gun single shot shows accuracy that is dramatically better than when it was chambered in 357 mag. Consistent 3/4 minute. Original Micro-Groove barrel beautifully rechambered for me by Mike Bellm. But with the trigger-disconnect not working properly, the gun just sits.
In trying to get this conversion done and the fixes to the things screwed up by un-knowledgeably Smiths I spent over $800, not including the price of the gun bought 35 years ago. I just haven't the heart to invest another couple of hundred to get it "fixed" again.
I should add that the lever throw on this conversion was exactly the same as it was before it was altered. The function was all dependent of the timing of the carrier. The lever function on my rifle is actually smooth as glass at any speed of operation.
ReplyDeleteAlso, amazing is the accuracy with pistol bullets. There is no difference in accuracy between 158 gr JHPs and 180 gr rifle bullets designed for the 35 Remington.
Muzzle velocity is 2200 fps with 296 powder with the 158 gr JHP.
Hi, so i can use 357 max (marlin 1894 or 336) like single action without other modifications?
ReplyDeleteAnd what barrel will better 20" or 24" for shooting to 200 yards? Will difrents for 357 max 20 or 24" ?
If you mean that you could use the re-chambered rifle as a single-SHOT, then yes but you likely would not be happy with the accuracy of the gun when used as a .357 MAG repeater.
ReplyDeleteMy '94 Marlin currently feeds the 357 Maximum cartridge from the magazine as if it had been designed around that cartridge. Accuracy at 100yds is 2-2.5" groups (scoped, off a rest). Modifications are straight forward once I got a smith to actually listen to my ideas. Mods were made to the carrier to handle the cartridge length; to the carrier to adjust the timing so the cartridge aligned with the chamber before the bolt started to close. The problem remaining is that the last smith slicked up the action so it runs smooth as oiled glass, but the hammer disconnect no longer functions properly. If I pull the trigger inadvertently before the bolt is closed and locked, the hammer will fall...striking the firing pin with enough force to dent the primer. I have not had a primer fire in powderless test cartridges, but the gun is an accident waiting to happen. So the gun sits while I deal with more important things in life.
ReplyDeleteActually when looking at my notes, when using pistol primers, I have had one fire in a test powderless cartridge.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, the Marlin 1894C was rechambered to 357 Max by Mike Bellm (bellmtcs.com) at the very beginning of the conversion process. I fired that as a single shot until the rest of the feeding issues were straightened out. Mike Bellm was not a levergun man, he only rechambered the barrel for me.
Ok, but 20 or 24 " barrel for hunter to 200-300 yards (deers max 130 kg) ???
ReplyDeleteI don't think of the .357 Max as a 300-meter cartridge. It IS capable of the necessary accuracy but the trajectory could be problematic for those not knowing the exact range to the target. Where I hunt this is not a problem because either terrain or vegetation make 200-yards a "long" shot.
ReplyDeleteAnony, you are going to have to figure it out yourself. The barrel on the '84C is only 18" long including the chamber. Most of the 35 caliber bullets that will expand at 150-200 yards are blunt nose pistol types which slow down rather quickly.
ReplyDeleteI have fired some spire point bullets intended for 35 caliber rifles. I have killed a mule deer with one at 120 yards, but those bullets do not expand at 357 Max velocities at that distance. The do penetrate well, one unrecovered bullet traversed from the left front chest and exited the right rear hip of the muley. But, the deer WALKED 150 yards before collapsing, indicating to me little shock or trauma.
My powder of choice is 296. There may be some rifle powders that with some experimentation will give you a significantly higher velocities out of a longer barrel, but I like the fact that I use the same box of ammo for both the Marlin and my Dan Wesson revolver.
I have see a 15" barreled Contender, with the proper chamber and throat, deliver a 5 shot 3" group at 200 yds. The is nothing wanting in the inherent accuracy of the cartridge.