Rossi Scout Mount for 92s

Rossi makes a scout mount for their clone of the Winchester 92.  Some dealers are claiming that the mount is "unobtanium".  While the hole spacing is the same as for the TC Encore (Contender) the barrel taper is different and so that mount would require reshaping along the bottom.  Fortunately that's not necessary as the Rossi folks have them in stock.  Just call Rossi Customer Service @ 305-474-0401-1 and order one.

Well, I finally got to take out the .45 Colt M92 after securing the front sight. Results were pleasing. Because it was raining and going downrange would have resulted in my own field of lost shoes I just shot at pre-placed (make that left behind) stuff including several metal plates. These have been there a while and are about 6" in diameter and at 50, 100 and 150 yards. Although I only got to shoot about 15 rounds, every round was a hit at every range, from the standing position! Very pleased I am. The load was 23 gr. H110 under the Sierra 300 gr. .451 JSP lit by a CCI large pistol magnum primer in Winchester cases. Seated as these were, they fed very smoothly through the gun. This load is in the 30K CUP range.

Hopefully, I be able to try the 265 gr. Cast Performance bullet loaded over 9 gr. of Unique the next time I get to the range. Unfortunately that will be about the middle of July! Argggggh!!!!

As I continue load development for the .45 Colt I can see that a trend is developing. Readers who wish to have some good background on what the .45 Colt can do when used in the M92 platform should read Paco Kelly's article on the .45 Colt in such rifles, 45 (long) Colt in Leveraction Rifles.

I'm not certain where Paco got his pressure data on his loads but my experiences seem to bear out those figures. Of course, I don't have a strain gage or lab to do testing for me, this is just many years of experience (and some mistakes!) talking.

So, I've already found that the load using the Sierra 300 gr. JFP and 23 gr. of H110 is fully acceptable in the M92 Rossi and I expect that I could do the same with the Hornady XTP bullets. The two Hornady bullets I'm referring to are the 300 gr. XTP-HP and the XTP-Mag. If I've updated the photo in an early post, you'll be able to see the differences in these two bullets. The main reason for doing so isn't really to gain more velocity and energy, although there might be minor benefits from doing so. The biggest reason is to bring the POI up on the target so that I can use these loads with my rear sight at it's lowest setting. I think I'll also be moving the 300 gr. Beartooth WFNGC a bit faster and will work up until that bullet also is "on" at 100 yards.

Now that bullet, and the Cast Performance 265 gr. WFNGC, are a hoot to shoot at targets. You can hear them slap the target backing at 100 yards. The sound is VERY noticeable and I'm sure that they would "slap" game pretty hard, too!

I am going to try to slow down the 265 gr. WFNGC, though. Even at moderate velocities with the 10 gr. Unique load, it shoots way too high at 100 yards. Perhaps IMR's (now owned by Hogdon) new Trail Boss powder will be just the ticket. Haven't seen any of that locally but I'm sure it will be here soon. We have several CAS organizations in the area. Even with a max advertised rifle velocity of about 725 fps, from a rifle it should do about 800-850 fps, that 265 gr. bullet would have a lot of uses around the farm for general use. Perhaps at that velocity it will shoot to the sights on MY rifle at some of the closer distances. It would also be a very mild shooter.

That brings up another subject, recoil. This rifle can either be a very mild gun to shoot with free recoil energy of less than 5 fpe or pretty rough with energies approaching 20 fpe. I'm sure many folks wouldn't like those upper level loads with the steel buttplate but I don't find them objectionable. It seems to me that the stock design is very good for my very average body dimensions. I might sometimes get a bit of bruising when wearing just a T-shirt but no pain.

I loaded 4 new loads (and the ramp ups) to test for velocity, accuracy and compatibility with the existing sight system on the EMF 92.

The bullets used in my .45 Colt handloads to date.

300 gr. Hornady XTP, 21 gr. H110, CCI 350
300 gr. Sierra JFP, 21 gr. H110, CCI350
260 gr. Cast Performance WFNGC, 10 gr. Unique, CCI300
145 gr. RB, 2.5 gr. Bullseye, CCI300

These are photos of the cartridges. The longest is 1.684" but still functions through the M92 action.

The longest of these cartridges is the load with the Sierra at 1.684" but the XTP has a second cannelure and can be loaded out to that length. Both will probably take the max load of 22 gr. H110 which should be very similar to that load as I use it with the 300 gr. bullet in the .44 Mag.

I've yet to use H4227 and Lil'Gun, both of which should provide slightly higher velocities if the manual is correct.

Yes, I have received the new .600" (measured from bottom of dovetail) Marbles sourdough front sight but haven't installed it yet. Perhaps my reloading will negate that necessity. That would be good as the sight will require modification, a lot of grinding, to use. I'd just as soon save the sight for another project if I can.

A comparison shot of the the factory front and the Marbles replacement. The Marbles must be extensively modified as most of the sight forward of the dovetail would have to be removed to avoid the barrel band!

This brings up another subject, removing and installing front sights. In this case the base of the original front sight was tapered in thickness to wedge into place in the center. It was heavily greased in the dovetail and can almost be removed and installed by hand but didn't come out after firing many rounds of heavy reloads. This is why one removes left-to-right and installs right-to-left. Not everyone does this sort of thing but enough do that it pays to adhere to this procedure.

As the saga of my new EMF Hartford 92 .45 Colt continues I've more to report.

Yesterday I went to the range thinking that I might have solved the problem with zeroing the rompin' stompin' .45 Colt loads using H110 and the Hornady 250 gr. XTP. At 1778 fps, these are so fast that the .065" sight change made didn't do the trick. Well, now here's a puzzle, it did do the trick with the much slower 225 gr. Winchester Silvertip factory loads! It may have lowered the POI of the heavy hitters by 2" but brought the Silvertips down the entire, calculated, 11". So, what is up with that? As it is, the gun shoots high with the XTP load even at 150 yards!

In the photos below, you can see what happened on March 31st and what happened yesterday. I know that yesterday's group gave a better impression of the accuracy of the system with the various loads but it did rather raise another problem. One should note that we had a 25-30 mph quartering to cross wind! Had one gust I thought would take the roof off the shooting bench shed!

The question is, what to do? Well, one thing is to go to slower but heavier bullets OR bullets of about the same weight but slower OR lighter and faster bullets. I think that the last option is the least suitable given my intended use. It certainly isn't much good if I can't zero the system with usable ammunition at a reasonable range.

Brownell's does sell a sourdough front with the necessary height (.600") of over ½". That should also work to allow the adjustment necessary. Another thing is that the sourdough allows ½ the bead diameter in additional "height" because of how it is used to bisect the target as opposed to being placed over the target. If that doesn't work...

However, I did want to try heavier bullets and have order the Sierra and Hornady 300 gr. jacketed to try as well as the Cast Performance 260 gr. WFN. I also have the Lee Alox to lube some roundball to load over 2.5 gr. of Bullseye for a close range squirrel/rabbit load.

These are the targets from the two days.

.45 Colt Ammo

I wanted to record some of my shooting impressions concerning my new EMF Hartford 92 noted below.

Yesterday, I took it to the range along with my chronograph. The following loads were tested with the noted results.

Make	Bullet	Vel	FPE	AD	SD
CCI Blazer	200 gr. JHP	1152	590	20	29
Win Cowboy	250 gr. LFP	835	387	30	35
Win ST	225 gr. ST	946	448	18	27
Reload	250 gr. XTP	1778	1756	12	28

The reload consists of 250 gr. Hornady XTP-HP over 26 gr. H110 ignited by a CCI Magnum Large Pistol primer in new Winchester cases.


These are the cartridges I've tested so far.

After chronographing, I immediately went to the targets at 50 yards. A 3" bull was placed at 50 yards and used as the aiming point. Remember, my rear sight is all the way down as low as it will go. Somewhat surprisingly, all rounds grouped into about 4". Not so surprisingly, the center of this group was 3-4" above the POA. I then moved the target to 100 yards and mounted a 12" bull just above the 3". I fired 3 rounds using the center of the large bull as an aiming point. Neither round hit the target. I then used the lower 3" bull as an aiming point. Interestingly, a neighboring shooter said something about me not being able to hit the target. Frankly, I took offense and said, "look, it shoots high, I'll try a couple at the lower bull," and cranked off 2 more at the lower bull. The impact of both rounds can be seen in the photo, 2" apart. The load used was my reload. That did it for my reloads and I fired a mixture of the other ammo using the lower bull as the POA. ALL rounds struck 11" above that and to the right of the target. Easy enough to adjust the Williams Foolproof laterally, but there was nowhere to go for elevation. Quick reference to the Brownell's technical page on sight adjustment gave the amount of adjustment needed at .065".

I wrote Steve Young about the problem and that I proposed to modify the sight to correct the problem. I immediately got a phone call from him! He mentioned that another customer had the same problem. He thinks that the same sights are used on all guns and that they are set up for the .38/357 Magnum guns. After a good discussion the following options seemed to be on the table.

1. Modify the Williams Foolproof to allow it to go deeper the .065" necessary.
2. Get a front sight .065" higher.
3. Split the difference between the front and rear sight.
4. Send it back and drill 2 MORE holes for the sight.
5. Send it back and bend the barrel.

I rejected options 5 and 4. I do not want to bend the barrel, drill and tap 2 additional holes OR send it back.

The front sight is already an unsupported ½" tall. I don't think I want a taller front sight and don't want the hassle of changing out the front sight. A post or sourdough would give me about .020" to .025" height because the bead is used by placing it over the target and the post bisects the target. How it is used counts for something. I rejected options 2 and 3.

So, I've set myself up to modify the rear sight and after a close examination and taking the sight all the way apart and putting it back together a couple of times, started to work. First I scribed the outline of the elevator and then chucked the mount in the vise (after removing from the rifle, of course). I then went to work on it with a file. It took a couple of different files and the Dremel tool to nick out a particularly troublesome corner but I notched out the top back of the mount to give me another .065" clearance. Seems to work, now I'll be back to the range (after I load some more ammo).

Back to the ammo. All except my handloads were very mild generating only about 3-5 FPE in recoil energy despite the light weight of the rifle. Velocities are probably little different from those of the same cartridges fired in a revolver. The light loads smoked the brass cases and sometimes made it appear that I'd had a case failure by virtue of all the smoke coming from the action!

The CCI Blazer was first up and while accurate and mild to shoot (all are very mild) it didn't extract well because the rim isn't correct for use with the extractor. I can see how it would work fine in a revolver, but it was mildly irritating in the rifle.

Next was the Winchester Cowboy load. Put up in an old west appearing box, it is very mild in performance giving the lowest velocities of any factory ammunition tried.

Then, I tried the Winchester Silvertip. I thought this would be a relatively "hot" ammo as it is clear that it was made for the self-defense use of the cartridge. Just look at that huge hollowpoint!. Not so. Did give cloverleafs at 50 yards.

Then, the rip snorters, my handloads. Not only is the AD and SD of this ammo lower than any factory ammo but it cut cloverleafs at 50 yards AND can go into less than 2" at 100 yards (see target). Once I get it zeroed and fine-tuned, I think this will be pretty good ammo for my uses. 1756 FPE is nothing to sneeze at and extraction and ejection were slick and positive.

Through it all, the rifle performed as expected. SLICK! All ammo fed without problems except that I short stroked it twice for some unknown reason. The bore must be slick as well, clean up was a breeze. Brass came out with little deformation indicating a seemingly well cut chamber. Recoil should have been stout with my handloads but it wasn't at all punishing. It seemed less so than my old Winchester and Marlin 1894s in .44 Magnum. Both guns weighed more so it must be a happy coincidence of the rifle's geometry and my body shape!

With the sight now right I expect that the next range session will produce a good zero.

Rossi/EMF .45 Colt Carbine Arrives

I've finally (after ONLY 8 weeks) received my EMF Hartford M92 Winchester clone from Steve Young (aka Nate Kiowa Jones) of Steve's Gunz.



My new EMF 92 in .45 Colt

I haven't been able to get to the range, yet, but did get to shoot a few rounds and make a few observations.



The receiver, lever and hammer are all in color case.

Steve has a great program where he will sell you an EMF gun at 10% over wholesale, he does his race ready work and ships it to you for one price. In addition, I had him mount a Williams Foolproof Receiver Sight, replace the plastic follower with one of steel, and install a barrel sight dovetail blank to replace the removed rear sight. My total was $638.90 and I think worth every penny.

When I got to the local FFL to pick up the gun, the folks there commented on how slick this gun was compared to the Legacy, Navy Arms and Rossi guns that they had sold. It is slick! You can operate the lever, under load, with only your little finger. Further, it works at speed or as slowly as you can work the lever. I've yet to see just how long a cartridge it will handle but it did handle all the ammo I had on hand.

Now the ammo is an experience. I suppose that the major markets around here are for CAS shooters and those who wish to spend little money as everyone seems to have only the "cowboy" loads by various makers and CCI Blazers in the aluminum cases. There is one exception, most dealers seem to have large quantities of Winchester Silvertips which use a 200 gr. bullet. It is a good thing that I bought some 250 gr. Hornady XTPs and a couple of hundred new cases. I'm certainly not going to be able to explore the full performance range of this rifle with locally available ammunition.

The gun itself is pretty nice. While the color case is nothing as brilliant and bright as a Doug Turnbull it does have the appearance of well-worn well-cared for color case hardened metal. I don't know if that is the intent but it does give the appearance of a very well cared for rifle with faded colors. I should note that this is on this particular gun. I've seen several of the Navy Arms guns with a more intense color. Those of you who do this know that there can be variations in production guns and I don't know what process is used for the color-case on the Rossi made guns.

The metal finish of the blued steel parts seems pretty even with no dips or waves or color variation. However, even I (I've got color deficient vision) could see that the magazine tube and the barrel have a different finish. I'm not certain if the barrel simply has a higher polish but the colors and appearance is different. I did need a good natural sunlight on it to see it though. It is the magazine tube that is the odd duck as the rest of the blued steel parts seem to match.

The wood to metal fit is generally very good with only 2 exceptions. Both are where the butt meets the receiver and both are on the left side of the gun. One is where the wood stands a bit proud of the receiver boss and the other is where a bit of a chip (possibly) was taken from the wood along the tang. All the rest is very good even the buttplate which seemed to be a bugaboo on other guns I've seen from this maker (Rossi).

The wood itself is some sort of hardwood that mimics walnut but clearly isn't. Fairly unimpressive stuff, only the left side of the butt has any figure at all. I'm sure that many of Winchester's guns with the gumwood stocks looked no better than this.

I had Steve install a Williams Foolproof Receiver Sight as I thought that best for my purpose. I did consider a good fully adjustable tang peep sight but passed on that even though I'm a fan of them and just installed one on my 1906 Winchester (see below). Why? Because I thought it would get in the way and MIGHT be a hazard in high recoil situations with maximum loads. The second reason was unfounded despite the light 5 to 5¼ lb weight of this rifle. However, it would have been in the way.

This rifle is petite, so much so that when you wrap your hand around the wrist of the rifle your hand covers the whole wrist. I think that this would make a tang sight a big problem on what is a hunting rifle. Sometimes I have to control the rifle by holding by the wrist and this would be difficult indeed with the tang sight in the way.

The Williams Foolproof is a great sight and I have one on many of my rifles. It is light, strong, easily & accurately adjusted, without unnecessary protrusions to catch brush. Steve did a great job on the installation but I, in my ignorance, failed to make a specific request. That is, the sight should be mounted so that with the vertical adjustment in the lowest position the horizontal just clears the top of the receiver. It appears that this translates to having the top of the mount even with the bottom of the bevel on the receiver OR 1/8" lower than was done. Now I see why Steve mounted the sight mount even with the top of the receiver, but it doesn't give the full range of adjustment that users might find necessary. For my next rifle (I'm thinking .32-20), this is what I will have done.

For those who may not know, this is how the rifle (carbine) started.




I think that Steve did a wonderful job and I really like the gun. I hope that I'll get to wring it out including running all the ammo over the chronograph before too long.

New Rifle Coming

I'm going to write a bit about my .45 Colt, EMF/Rossi M92 carbine finished in blue and color-casehardened receiver. I ordered this gun from Steve Young of Steve's Gunz. Steve is going to do his "race ready" work, install a Williams Foolproof, steel follower, and barrel sight slot blank. I considered having this made into a 16" trapper or trapper with button mag but decided that it would be infinitely wiser to shoot it as manufacturered (with Steve's refinements) and then decide if I wanted to shorten the barrel, magazine or both.

The EMF rifle as shown on their website.

I've already purchased the RCBS carbide die set for this cartridge. I also bought 100 cases and 1 box of 100 Hornady 250 gr. XTP HP bullets. I plan on loading this particular lot over a hefty charge of H110 but will also do some round ball loads over Bullseye and some cast GCs over Unique and Lil'Gun.

The thing that is getting to me is the wait. It has only been about 30 days now but I feel as if it has been a year! Pretty lame for an old, well, older man! In any case it is a bear to be waiting so I've tried to distract myself.

My first thought was to find a good single-action revolver in .45 Colt that could become my big bore revolver (so that I could rid myself of the 629). That search was a bust. I'm wanting a Bisley grip on the Vaquero and would have accepted the standard grip on a New Vaquero (aka Vaquerito). I then broadened my search to include the USFA or Colt revolvers. No joy. Now, after much searching and looking at the various revolvers I've come to the conclusion that I "need" a Freedom Arms M97 and am leaning towards the fixed sight version. Still, at $1694, this is no spur of the moment purchase. I'd want the .45 Colt. Anyway, at $1694, I'd better think about this some more so I need to find some other diversion!

I have this old Winchester 06, a pump-action rifle for the .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle, made in 1924 that belonged to my maternal grandfather. Many years ago my grandmother, a virulent anti-gun person as are her 3 sisters, made Grandfather put all his guns in the attic. Well, as will happen, the roof leaked and moisture got on and near the guns and there was some rust. When I got this one, it was in bad shape and I had it bead blasted (which removed the worst of it) and re-blued. I had replaced the sights. This included the front sight (which I thought was too short for the replacement rear sight) but I discovered that it was the same height as the replacement and switched back to the original No. 21 front sight. Now, something had to be done about the rear sight.

Well, I like aperture sights (you might have noticed) and so I checked with Marble's as to the fit and threading of the mounting screws and decided to order one of their windage adjustable tang sights for the 06. Not cheap but cheaper in real dollars than they would have been when the rifle was made. Now I'm waiting for delivery of the sight but when I get it this gun will be set up just like my other grandfather's Winchester M62A (made in 1947 IIRC).

I think I might have as much as 4 more weeks to wait so... I guess I need to find another project to keep me occupied.